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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Tom Guhl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2161 - 2013-04-25 18:32:15 UTC
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:

Some of the drone changes/ideas that you mention might work.

Thing is, they are not scheduled for Odyssey. There is no thread for them. It is much harder to do this than swapping ship bonuses around.

Unless drone mechanics is thoroughly overhauled, the new Domi comes out as comparatively underpowered, inconsistent, and generally boring ship to fly.

And I have not seen any good explanation as to what is wrong with the old Domi, except "every race gets one attack and two combat BS". Except they really don't. Caldari have a disruption BS. Amarr have a disruption/attack hybrid (new Geddon). And Gallente are getting nerfed.

Thought exercise: how could this be spun as a good thing?

Dominix receives changes that could make it a really good and special droneboat when they revamp drones, only they haven't revamped drones so it sucks. Dominix fans and Gallente in general use the Dominix as a rallying cry for CCP getting off their asses and hurry up with the drone rework; the ship needs the drones that are supposed to make it good! Popular outcry makes CCP devote actual time and energy to getting the rework out in a more timely fashion. The guy behind the Dominix rework smiles. Bear
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2162 - 2013-04-25 21:18:32 UTC
Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:
Roime wrote:
Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:
How can they say that the gallentas primary weapon system are the drones if they do stuff like that to the mega


They don't. Nobody has ever said such a thing, and drones have never been the primary weapon of any race.

Hope this helped you.


Let me quote the main wepsite.
Quote:
Drone Masters

The Gallente Federation have taken drones - for the other empires something of an after-thought or secondary weapon system at best - and placed them at the heart of their ship design philosophy. The vast majority of Gallente ships have drone capability, often beyond that of comparable designs in the other empires, and the Federation has developed a large array of dedicated drone carriers that use these robotic gunships as their primary weapon system. While being known for their heavy use of drones, the Gallente have not neglected raw firepower and many of their designs are optimized for the blaster family of short-range, high-damage hybrid turrets. While the Gallente share hybrid turret technology with their Caldari State enemies, due to a shared history, their preference in defense is for strongly-armored designs. The Gallente approach to electronic warfare also differs notably from others and relies on dampening enemy sensors, reducing their effective range and ability to lock onto targets.



Well, that website has been bullshit then for years.

Of the current subcap lineup, only two ships have a drone damage bonus instead of hybrid damage bonus. Domi will be third, Tristan is the oddball and has no damage bonus at all. Myrmidon does 2/3 of damage with Ogres, with medium drones it's 1/2. Ishtar does most of it's damage with drones, but still has hybrid damage bonus.

Gallente is blaster race, even if it has a handful of drone ships.

.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2163 - 2013-04-25 21:44:02 UTC
Roime wrote:
Gallente is blaster race, even if it has a handful of drone ships.

Yet, almost all of their ships have a significant drone bay, eventhough the difference with other races have been reduced by the tiericide. But as a gallente pilot, you can't really discard drones, whatever the ship you fly.
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2164 - 2013-04-25 22:57:42 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:
If my drones are shooting at a slow ship, they orbit. Drones do not orbit faster than they can track.
They used to be able to do that in the past, but not anymore.
Tracking bonus is absolutely, positively, one hundred eleventy percent IRRELEVANT to non-sentry drones.

If my drones attempt to fight a fast ship, they kite. This is where the optimal range bonus MAY come into play. However, as the range on non-sentry drones is rather pitiful, this bonus will not have any meaning for non-sentries most of the time.

That is wrong. Orbit speed of drones is faster than their tracking speed (hint : when orbit speed = tracking speed, you do 40% dps). The only case where they track well is the case of heavy drones shooting battleship, because they have the same signature resolution than medium drones.


No, buddy, you are absolutely wrong (and regarding that 40% number, it is just pure nonsense).
Your latest statement tells me that you don't understand the difference between sig resolution issues and tracking issues.

Drones orbit a stationary object at fixed linear velocity. That velocity is fixed (by design / in game client code) to a value that allows the drone to *always* track the target.
In other words, if your drone just missed, it missed because of sig radius mismatch, or because of being out of optimal range.

The only situation where a non-sentry drone will miss due to tracking is if the intended target is orbiting the drone. For instance, I have webbed someone's Ogre II with a 90% web on my Vigilant, and my friend in a Taranis is orbiting the said Ogre II at 1000m. The Ogre II won't track the Taranis and will miss.

Of course, the example above is contrived and absolutely hypothetical. When was the last time you orbited someone's drone? Thought so.

Note that there is NO skill in game that affects drone orbit velocity. There is also no skill that affects drone tracking.

Drone Navigation was fixed for good many patches ago to affect only the drone MWD velocity. In other words, your drones will get to target faster if you learn Drone Navigation. They will still orbit at exactly the same velocity as if you did not learn the skill. Before this skill was finally fixed for good, people used to recommend learning Drone Shaprshooting to at least the same level (it did help a bit).

Thus, tracking is IRRELEVANT to non-sentries. Unless you want to shoot Taranises and Maledictions that orbit your drones. I always dreamed of doing this with my Domi, and now I can!




PS: Don't try killing inties with Ogre IIs. They will track perfectly, but will miss badly. Because of sig radius.
Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2165 - 2013-04-25 22:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jizzmaster Mckenzie
Tom Guhl wrote:
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:

Some of the drone changes/ideas that you mention might work.

Thing is, they are not scheduled for Odyssey. There is no thread for them. It is much harder to do this than swapping ship bonuses around.

Unless drone mechanics is thoroughly overhauled, the new Domi comes out as comparatively underpowered, inconsistent, and generally boring ship to fly.

And I have not seen any good explanation as to what is wrong with the old Domi, except "every race gets one attack and two combat BS". Except they really don't. Caldari have a disruption BS. Amarr have a disruption/attack hybrid (new Geddon). And Gallente are getting nerfed.

Thought exercise: how could this be spun as a good thing?

Dominix receives changes that could make it a really good and special droneboat when they revamp drones, only they haven't revamped drones so it sucks. Dominix fans and Gallente in general use the Dominix as a rallying cry for CCP getting off their asses and hurry up with the drone rework; the ship needs the drones that are supposed to make it good! Popular outcry makes CCP devote actual time and energy to getting the rework out in a more timely fashion. The guy behind the Dominix rework smiles. Bear



Thanks for the optimism Cool

I really wish that itl happens this way, but I am not holding my breath. Fixing drone mechanics will take a major effort, and I just don't see that happening soon.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2166 - 2013-04-25 23:23:14 UTC
Jizzmaster Mckenzie wrote:
No, buddy, you are absolutely wrong (and regarding that 40% number, it is just pure nonsense).
Your latest statement tells me that you don't understand the difference between sig resolution issues and tracking issues.

Drones orbit a stationary object at fixed linear velocity. That velocity is fixed (by design / in game client code) to a value that allows the drone to *always* track the target.
In other words, if your drone just missed, it missed because of sig radius mismatch, or because of being out of optimal range.

The only situation where a non-sentry drone will miss due to tracking is if the intended target is orbiting the drone. For instance, I have webbed someone's Ogre II with a 90% web on my Vigilant, and my friend in a Taranis is orbiting the said Ogre II at 1000m. The Ogre II won't track the Taranis and will miss.

Of course, the example above is contrived and absolutely hypothetical. When was the last time you orbited someone's drone? Thought so.

Note that there is NO skill in game that affects drone orbit velocity. There is also no skill that affects drone tracking.

Drone Navigation was fixed for good many patches ago to affect only the drone MWD velocity. In other words, your drones will get to target faster if you learn Drone Navigation. They will still orbit at exactly the same velocity as if you did not learn the skill. Before this skill was finally fixed for good, people used to recommend learning Drone Shaprshooting to at least the same level (it did help a bit).

Thus, tracking is IRRELEVANT to non-sentries. Unless you want to shoot Taranises and Maledictions that orbit your drones. I always dreamed of doing this with my Domi, and now I can!




PS: Don't try killing inties with Ogre IIs. They will track perfectly, but will miss badly. Because of sig radius.

I suggest you to have a look at the tracking formula and how it works, because you clearly don't know. Especially the graph at the bottom will show you where the 40% comes from.

So unless drones don't use the tracking formula (but I would wonder why they have tracking then), you are wrong.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2167 - 2013-04-26 01:01:35 UTC
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Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Tom Guhl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2168 - 2013-04-26 04:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tom Guhl
Roime wrote:
Of the current subcap lineup, only two ships have a drone damage bonus instead of hybrid damage bonus. Domi will be third, Tristan is the oddball and has no damage bonus at all. Myrmidon does 2/3 of damage with Ogres, with medium drones it's 1/2. Ishtar does most of it's damage with drones, but still has hybrid damage bonus.

Gallente is blaster race, even if it has a handful of drone ships.

2 Gallente T1 ships with drone damage bonus and gun damage bonus: Dominix, Vexor.
1 Gallente T1 ship with drone damage bonus and gun non-damage bonus: Algos.
1 Gallente T1 ship with drone damage bonus and no gun bonus: Myrmidon.
0 Gallente T1 ships with drone non-damage bonus and gun damage bonus.
1 Gallente T1 ship with drone non-damage bonus and gun non-damage bonus: Tristan
0 Gallente T2 ships with drone non-damage bonus and no gun bonus.

3-4 Gallente T2 ships with drone damage bonus and gun damage bonus: Sin, Ishtar, Helios (thermal only), Eos*
0 Gallente T2 ships with drone damage bonus and gun non-damage bonus.
0 Gallente T2 ships with drone damage bonus and no gun bonus.
1 Gallente T2 ship with drone non-damage bonus and gun damage bonus: Ishkur
0 Gallente T2 ships with drone non-damage bonus and gun non-damage bonus.
0-1 Gallente T2 ship with drone non-damage bonus and no gun bonus: Eos*

*Eos gets a Battlecruiser-based gun damage bonus and no BC drone bonus, and a Command Ship drone bonus and no gun bonus. However, its sister ship the Astarte gets a Command Ship gun bonus, so it can be said that the Eos "gave up" its gun bonus for the drone bonus, even though it does still have a gun bonus.

(Velator not counted; has drone damage and gun damage bonuses but it's a rookie ship. Exequror and Oneiros not counted; they have a drone bonus but it is logistics, not offensively related.)

That's ... actually kind of depressing, considering that the Helios drone bonus is kind of a joke and the black-ops battleship isn't really considered a combat class of vessel, even though it technically can. I wouldn't know about Command Ships. Two or three "real" T2 drone ships for the Gallente.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2169 - 2013-04-26 06:24:22 UTC
The fact that Creo*Dron is a T2 manufacturer pretty much proves the point you're trying to make without a long list. Haha.

Creo*Dron = Drones (Gallente only T2 specializations)
Duvolle Labs = Blasters
Roden shipyards = Useless bonuses and fittings (Oops!)

Save the drones!
Tom Guhl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2170 - 2013-04-26 06:37:42 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
The fact that Creo*Dron is a T2 manufacturer pretty much proves the point you're trying to make without a long list. Haha.

Creo*Dron = Drones (Gallente only T2 specializations)
Duvolle Labs = Blasters
Roden shipyards = Useless bonuses and fittings (Oops!)

Yeah, I forgot to add this:
"On the other hand, I think the Amarr Curse is the ONLY non-Gallente T2 ship with drone bonuses."
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2171 - 2013-04-26 07:11:47 UTC
Tom Guhl wrote:
Yeah, I forgot to add this:
"On the other hand, I think the Amarr Curse is the ONLY non-Gallente T2 ship with drone bonuses."

Because Pilgrim isn't a real ship P
But yeah, we get the idea.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2172 - 2013-04-26 07:17:36 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Roime wrote:
Gallente is blaster race, even if it has a handful of drone ships.

Yet, almost all of their ships have a significant drone bay, eventhough the difference with other races have been reduced by the tiericide. But as a gallente pilot, you can't really discard drones, whatever the ship you fly.


No, I'm certainly not discounting drones, they are awesome, but the primary weapons of Gallente are blasters.

.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2173 - 2013-04-26 08:20:01 UTC
Roime wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Roime wrote:
Gallente is blaster race, even if it has a handful of drone ships.

Yet, almost all of their ships have a significant drone bay, eventhough the difference with other races have been reduced by the tiericide. But as a gallente pilot, you can't really discard drones, whatever the ship you fly.


No, I'm certainly not discounting drones, they are awesome, but the primary weapons of Gallente are blasters.

Blasters and drones.

Just like Caldari had Railguns and Missiles.

Save the drones!
Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
#2174 - 2013-04-26 11:05:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bereza Mia
New Dominix bonuses are very good, and new Armageddon bonuses too.

But with this ship bonuses it will be more profitable use projectile turrets (only because they don't use capacitor).
And this is just strange.
Perihelion Olenard
#2175 - 2013-04-26 11:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Bereza Mia wrote:
New Dominix bonuses are very good, and new Armageddon bonuses too.

But with this ship bonuses it will be more profitable use projectile turrets (only because they don't use capacitor).
And this is just strange.

The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. They don't require capacitor, either. I plan to use blasters for the damage.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2176 - 2013-04-26 11:45:44 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
New Dominix bonuses are very good, and new Armageddon bonuses too.

But with this ship bonuses it will be more profitable use projectile turrets (only because they don't use capacitor).
And this is just strange.

The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. They don't require capacitor, either. I plan to use blasters for the damage.

Uh, no, the Dominix does not get launchers like the Armageddon does.

Save the drones!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2177 - 2013-04-26 13:47:16 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
New Dominix bonuses are very good, and new Armageddon bonuses too.

But with this ship bonuses it will be more profitable use projectile turrets (only because they don't use capacitor).
And this is just strange.

The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. They don't require capacitor, either. I plan to use blasters for the damage.

Uh, no, the Dominix does not get launchers like the Armageddon does.



Yet blasters still do far more damage. And if you are not active tanking.. there is no much use for that capacitor that you plan to save on the projectiles...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
#2178 - 2013-04-26 14:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bereza Mia
Perihelion Olenard wrote:

The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. They don't require capacitor, either. I plan to use blasters for the damage.


Autocannons don't require capacitor, can cause any damage type, and have not much less dps then blasters.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#2179 - 2013-04-26 14:07:25 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Bereza Mia wrote:
New Dominix bonuses are very good, and new Armageddon bonuses too.

But with this ship bonuses it will be more profitable use projectile turrets (only because they don't use capacitor).
And this is just strange.

The default weapon system doesn't have to be projectiles. A person could use cruise missiles or torpedoes as well since it has as many launcher hardpoints. They don't require capacitor, either. I plan to use blasters for the damage.

Uh, no, the Dominix does not get launchers like the Armageddon does.



Yet blasters still do far more damage. And if you are not active tanking.. there is no much use for that capacitor that you plan to save on the projectiles...

0% of my post was talking about whether blasters or capless weapons were better. I was just informing Olenard that no, the Dominix does not get to use missiles.

Save the drones!
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2180 - 2013-04-26 14:13:16 UTC
Bereza Mia wrote:
and have not much less dps then blasters.
They do have much less dps than blasters, by a large margin.