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Faction Weapons Balance (Turrets vS Launchers)
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Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-10-31 20:47:41 UTC
With the current hybrid weapon re-balance maybe this is the time to bring this up.
If this is already an active topic or has already been addressed, I apologize for the double post.


Is there a reason that Faction Hybrids/Projectile(and to some extent lasers) are under-powered relative to Caldari missile systems. I mean I know that Caldari are suppose to be the best race and all . . .

Example (Faction vs Meta 4)

Caldari Cruise Missile Launcher vs Meta 4.
DPS bonus - 11.7% (rate of fire bonus)
Powergrid Bonus - 90% of meta 4
Capacity Bonus - 15% more than meta 4
CPU Penalty - 20% more than meta 4


Fed Navy 425mm
DPS Bonus - 4.2%
CPU Penalty - 30% more than meta 4
Range Penalty - 0.7% less range than meta 4


Republic Fleet 1400mm Art
DPS Bonus - 5.3% (rate of fire bonus)


Tachyon Beam Laser
DPS Bonus - 4.2%
Energy Bonus - requires 93.75% of the energy of meta 4
Powergrid Penalty - 10% more powergrid than meta 4

Why are the Caldari faction missile systems so much more powerful than other faction weapon systems (compared to their T1 versions). Is now the right time to balance them out?

Only the Caldari missile systems can out-damage the T2 variant (with reasonable skill in the T2 weapon system).

Only the Caldari missile systems are easier to fit than the T1 variety.


-FM
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-10-31 22:00:09 UTC
Thats cool, your comparing Apples vs Soup Cans vs Vacums vs Butter. Your debatable points are Missle (DPS, PG, Capacity of ammo, CPU) while Railgun (DPS, CPU, Range? but missing PG and ammo) while Artillery (DPS, missing everything else), and Tachyon (DPS, PG, and Energy Bonus but missing ammo which it doesn't use really and CPU). So, while your trying to prove a point you fail to list a coherent idea. And the reason weapons sytems are different...get this its so funny...they are different and fitting of weapons corresponds to CPU/PG of that races ships or the fact that missiles act differently then guns (missiles always hit out max range and loose damage vs smaller target while guns have optimal and loose damage in falloff but have tracking issues if the optimal is so close...missiles just hit the same damage at 5 kms, 50km, or 500meters on the same size target while a gun won't hit at all at short range or extremely long range deep into fall off)
Nezumiiro Noneko
Alternative Enterprises
#3 - 2011-10-31 22:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Nezumiiro Noneko
apples and oranges.....


rof for missiles does not equal omfg op carnage. Take a raven and a pest. Given them both a stupid crazy o-fit tank to be eqaul at living an onlsuaght to be equal. that pests ROF bonus will wipe rats faster than the raven. 1400's are instant hit. salvo hits, kills target your next salvo goes on to next live target. Your raven depending on range can have 1-2 salvos about to kill a space dust cloud. Why eft is not your friend here.....and why ravens are not fleet bs'. You launch missiles on targets that died 2 seconds after launch.

see your penaliies. then relaize they hit each ship where it hurts. Barring some PVP fits I have, caldari ships are cpu limited not PG. the cpu penalty hurts caldari. The easier pg is an unneeded bonus. I have only 1 missile chucker with pg issues that need an acr. since its a jam scorpion that doubles as fleet supprt with reppers and a cap booster to keep power up ......I'd be an idiot to run cn launchers to fix that pg with CN launchers. The gun pg hurts gun ships. What this means for ravens and everyone else is if you go max gank, something is going to give on the tank to fit all that shiny dakka dakka.

Capacity means nothing in this debate. You listed lazers...no capactiy. Fire till crystal break.
Goose99
#4 - 2011-11-01 04:39:38 UTC
1 mil t2 guns outdps 100mil faction guns -> imbalance between t2 and faction guns, not between guns and missiles. Former is apples to apples, later is apples to oranges.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-11-01 06:43:23 UTC
You're missing bonuses.

So navy launchers have a higher rate of fire bonus than navy turrets.

However, one thing you're forgetting is that navy launchers ONLY effect rate of fire.

Navy turrets however effect optimal, minimal, and max range. Some also effect tracking, and most have damage modifiers on them.

To get more damage, more range, with a better overall compensated explosion radius, we also have to purchase navy ammo.

However, turrets get faction ammo as well.

If you factor all your bonuses on your turrets besides just the rate of fire, then you're probably getting better bonuses than navy launchers.

The only thing launchers give is rate of fire.

So it doesn't effect our exp velocity, doesn't effect our exp radius, and doesn't effect our range.

You get the benefit of the turret variants of this just with the turrets themselves, and then the faction ammo just adds more to it.

We have to get ammo the get all the bonuses that truly make a difference.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-11-01 16:27:15 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Thats cool, your comparing Apples vs Soup Cans vs Vacums vs Butter. Your debatable points are Missle (DPS, PG, Capacity of ammo, CPU) while Railgun (DPS, CPU, Range? but missing PG and ammo) while Artillery (DPS, missing everything else), and Tachyon (DPS, PG, and Energy Bonus but missing ammo which it doesn't use really and CPU). So, while your trying to prove a point you fail to list a coherent idea. And the reason weapons sytems are different...get this its so funny...they are different and fitting of weapons corresponds to CPU/PG of that races ships or the fact that missiles act differently then guns (missiles always hit out max range and loose damage vs smaller target while guns have optimal and loose damage in falloff but have tracking issues if the optimal is so close...missiles just hit the same damage at 5 kms, 50km, or 500meters on the same size target while a gun won't hit at all at short range or extremely long range deep into fall off)



The point of this is not to compare missile systems to hybrid or Laser. The point is to compare a Faction Weapon System to its Meta 4 equiv.

Caldari Faction Missile Launchers >>> (much greater than) Meta 4 Missile Launchers

Federation Navy Hybrids <> (approx equal) to Meta 4 Hybrid Turrets

Why is that? Shouldn't all Faction Weapon Systems be much better than their meta 4 equiv?


Joe Risalo wrote:
You're missing bonuses.

So navy launchers have a higher rate of fire bonus than navy turrets.

However, one thing you're forgetting is that navy launchers ONLY effect rate of fire.

Navy turrets however effect optimal, minimal, and max range. Some also effect tracking, and most have damage modifiers on them.


You are incorrect here. Navy turrets DO NOT HAVE better optimal, tracking, or falloff than the meta 4 differences. I listed ALL of the DIFFERENCES between meta 4 and Faction above. If you'll notice the faction Hybrid system actually has LESS RANGE than it's meta 4 equiv.

Goose99 wrote:
1 mil t2 guns outdps 100mil faction guns -> imbalance between t2 and faction guns, not between guns and missiles. Former is apples to apples, later is apples to oranges.


You make a good point. As I stated above, only the Caldari Missile systems are capable of out damaging the T2 variety with standard/faction ammo.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-11-01 16:43:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
Fango Mango wrote:
Aqriue wrote:
Thats cool, your comparing Apples vs Soup Cans vs Vacums vs Butter. Your debatable points are Missle (DPS, PG, Capacity of ammo, CPU) while Railgun (DPS, CPU, Range? but missing PG and ammo) while Artillery (DPS, missing everything else), and Tachyon (DPS, PG, and Energy Bonus but missing ammo which it doesn't use really and CPU). So, while your trying to prove a point you fail to list a coherent idea. And the reason weapons sytems are different...get this its so funny...they are different and fitting of weapons corresponds to CPU/PG of that races ships or the fact that missiles act differently then guns (missiles always hit out max range and loose damage vs smaller target while guns have optimal and loose damage in falloff but have tracking issues if the optimal is so close...missiles just hit the same damage at 5 kms, 50km, or 500meters on the same size target while a gun won't hit at all at short range or extremely long range deep into fall off)



The point of this is not to compare missile systems to hybrid or Laser. The point is to compare a Faction Weapon System to its Meta 4 equiv.

Caldari Faction Missile Launchers >>> (much greater than) Meta 4 Missile Launchers

Federation Navy Hybrids <> (approx equal) to Meta 4 Hybrid Turrets

Why is that? Shouldn't all Faction Weapon Systems be much better than their meta 4 equiv?


Joe Risalo wrote:
You're missing bonuses.

So navy launchers have a higher rate of fire bonus than navy turrets.

However, one thing you're forgetting is that navy launchers ONLY effect rate of fire.

Navy turrets however effect optimal, minimal, and max range. Some also effect tracking, and most have damage modifiers on them.


You are incorrect here. Navy turrets DO NOT HAVE better optimal, tracking, or falloff than the meta 4 differences. I listed ALL of the DIFFERENCES between meta 4 and Faction above. If you'll notice the faction Hybrid system actually has LESS RANGE than it's meta 4 equiv.

Goose99 wrote:
1 mil t2 guns outdps 100mil faction guns -> imbalance between t2 and faction guns, not between guns and missiles. Former is apples to apples, later is apples to oranges.


You make a good point. As I stated above, only the Caldari Missile systems are capable of out damaging the T2 variety with standard/faction ammo.





So you are complaining that turrets have better meta 4 versions than launchers, ok I could go for an upgrade to meta 4 launchers to make them more inline with the smaller drop off of meta 4 turrets to T2 turrets
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-11-01 17:04:19 UTC
Zyress wrote:


So you are complaining that turrets have better meta 4 versions than launchers, ok I could go for an upgrade to meta 4 launchers to make them more inline with the smaller drop off of meta 4 turrets to T2 turrets


First . . . Care to provide some examples? Most(all??) Meta 4 missile turrets have the same (base) dps as T2. This is also true for hybrids. What's your complaint?



Second . . . I could care less about the balance of Turrets to Missiles.

Meta 4 is much better than Meta 0 across all weapon systems

T2 provides the same stats as Meta 4 with increased fitting requirements across all weapon systems (except T2 missile launchers get more capacity).


Faction Missile launchers provide a significant increase in stats over Meta.

Faction Turrets do not.

Why not???
Is it a game balance issue?
Is it a role-play issue (the caldari are suppose to be the most technologically advanced and have the strongest jove relations)
Did no one notice when the LP store was created?
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-11-01 17:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Fango Mango
Zyress wrote:


So you are complaining that turrets have better meta 4 versions than launchers, ok I could go for an upgrade to meta 4 launchers to make them more inline with the smaller drop off of meta 4 turrets to T2 turrets


First . . . Care to provide some examples? Most(all??) Meta 4 missile launchers have the same (base) dps as T2. This is also true for hybrids. What's your complaint?



Second . . . I could care less about the balance of Turrets to Missiles.

Meta 4 is much better than Meta 0 across all weapon systems

T2 provides the same stats as Meta 4 with increased fitting requirements across all weapon systems (except T2 missile launchers get more capacity).


Faction Missile launchers provide a significant increase in stats over Meta 4.

Faction Turrets do not.

Why not???
Is it a game balance issue?
Is it a role-play issue (the caldari are suppose to be the most technologically advanced and have the strongest jove relations)
Did no one notice when the LP store was created?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-11-01 18:27:02 UTC
dumn gallente...
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2011-11-01 19:34:29 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
You're missing bonuses.

So navy launchers have a higher rate of fire bonus than navy turrets.

However, one thing you're forgetting is that navy launchers ONLY effect rate of fire.

Navy turrets however effect optimal, minimal, and max range. Some also effect tracking, and most have damage modifiers on them.


You are incorrect here. Navy turrets DO NOT HAVE better optimal, tracking, or falloff than the meta 4 differences. I listed ALL of the DIFFERENCES between meta 4 and Faction above. If you'll notice the faction Hybrid system actually has LESS RANGE than it's meta 4 equiv.


One thing your forgot to comment on was the damage modifier.

Most faction turrets have a higher damage modifier than their meta 4 variants.

In most cases the ranges are the some, but in some the meta 4's do have better optimal.

However, like I said, the faction have a higher damage modifier.


So again, in order for me to get better damage, better range, better exp radius, and better exp velocity, I have to get the faction missiles as well.

You get bonuses in several different ways with turrets. In some cases optimal, some minimal, some max, some damage, some tracking, some cpu/powergrid exchange.

Then you have faction ammo that gives you more modifiers.

So when you factor meta 4 vs navy, don't forget the damage modifier.

for you rate of fire, tracking, and damage modifier = damage done.

for me rate of fire = damage done
Add ammo for me then i get damage output, exp radius, exp velocity = damage done

SO AGAIN, I GET BETTER RATE OF FIRE WITH FACTION LAUNCHERS, YOU GET BETTER EVERYTHING ELSE.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-11-01 21:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Fango Mango
Joe Risalo wrote:


One thing your forgot to comment on was the damage modifier.

Most faction turrets have a higher damage modifier than their meta 4 variants.

In most cases the ranges are the some, but in some the meta 4's do have better optimal.

However, like I said, the faction have a higher damage modifier.

I highlighted ALL of the differences between meta 4 and Faction in the top post.
Yes Hybrids do get a small boost in damage compared to meta 4.

Hybrids get a 4.2% damage increase over meta 4 (and are HARDER TO FIT)
Projectiles get a 5.3% damage increase over meta 4 (same fitting requirements)
Missile Systems get an 14.1% increase in damage over meta 4 (and are EASIER TO FIT)

Notice the difference???
That is my basic question. Why to the missile systems get such a larger bonus as compared to meta 4 that hybrid/projectile/laser



Joe Risalo wrote:

So again, in order for me to get better damage, better range, better exp radius, and better exp velocity, I have to get the faction missiles as well.

You get bonuses in several different ways with turrets. In some cases optimal, some minimal, some max, some damage, some tracking, some cpu/powergrid exchange.

No factions turrets NEVER get optimal, tracking or CPU/Powergrid bonuses!!!!
They only get CPU/Powergrid/Optimal PENALTIES


Joe Risalo wrote:

Then you have faction ammo that gives you more modifiers.

So when you factor meta 4 vs navy, don't forget the damage modifier.

for you rate of fire, tracking, and damage modifier = damage done.
for me rate of fire = damage done


Again, turrets get a DPS bonus (rate of fire or damage modifier) of 4.2%-5.3% depending on the type AND NO BONUS to range or tracking.

Missile systems get 14.2% damage.

See the difference yet???

Joe Risalo wrote:

Add ammo for me then i get damage output, exp radius, exp velocity = damage done

SO AGAIN, I GET BETTER RATE OF FIRE WITH FACTION LAUNCHERS, YOU GET BETTER EVERYTHING ELSE.


NO NO NO!!!
Turrets get 4.2% - 5.3% increase in DPS (from Rate of Fire or Damage Mod - NOT BOTH). And they get NO Tracking or Range benefits.


The real question . . . for those that understand Math

WHY are the Faction missile systems bonus so much greater than the Faction Turret bonuses?
Was it at attempt at game play balance, roleplay issues, or just forgetfulness?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-11-01 22:07:44 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


One thing your forgot to comment on was the damage modifier.

Most faction turrets have a higher damage modifier than their meta 4 variants.

In most cases the ranges are the some, but in some the meta 4's do have better optimal.

However, like I said, the faction have a higher damage modifier.

I highlighted ALL of the differences between meta 4 and Faction in the top post.
Yes Hybrids do get a small boost in damage compared to meta 4.

Hybrids get a 4.2% damage increase over meta 4 (and are HARDER TO FIT)
Projectiles get a 5.3% damage increase over meta 4 (same fitting requirements)
Missile Systems get an 14.1% increase in damage over meta 4 (and are EASIER TO FIT)

Notice the difference???
That is my basic question. Why to the missile systems get such a larger bonus as compared to meta 4 that hybrid/projectile/laser



Joe Risalo wrote:

So again, in order for me to get better damage, better range, better exp radius, and better exp velocity, I have to get the faction missiles as well.

You get bonuses in several different ways with turrets. In some cases optimal, some minimal, some max, some damage, some tracking, some cpu/powergrid exchange.

No factions turrets NEVER get optimal, tracking or CPU/Powergrid bonuses!!!!
They only get CPU/Powergrid/Optimal PENALTIES


Joe Risalo wrote:

Then you have faction ammo that gives you more modifiers.

So when you factor meta 4 vs navy, don't forget the damage modifier.

for you rate of fire, tracking, and damage modifier = damage done.
for me rate of fire = damage done


Again, turrets get a DPS bonus (rate of fire or damage modifier) of 4.2%-5.3% depending on the type AND NO BONUS to range or tracking.

Missile systems get 14.2% damage.

See the difference yet???

Joe Risalo wrote:

Add ammo for me then i get damage output, exp radius, exp velocity = damage done

SO AGAIN, I GET BETTER RATE OF FIRE WITH FACTION LAUNCHERS, YOU GET BETTER EVERYTHING ELSE.


NO NO NO!!!
Turrets get 4.2% - 5.3% increase in DPS (from Rate of Fire or Damage Mod - NOT BOTH). And they get NO Tracking or Range benefits.


The real question . . . for those that understand Math

WHY are the Faction missile systems bonus so much greater than the Faction Turret bonuses?
Was it at attempt at game play balance, roleplay issues, or just forgetfulness?


Either way you word it, CCP has done their job in balancing.

Turret fitted pvp ships can pretty much always pull out more dps than missile boats.

Turret fitted pve ships can also pull out more dps than missile boats.

The difference is functionality.

Turrets hit instantly, missiles have flight time.
Turrets have tracking, missiles have exp radius and velocity.
Turrets have minimal and optimal ranges, missile only have max.


Basically what I'm saying is you can't balance faction turrets off faction launchers.

That's like saying battleships need a speed boost because strategic cruisers can pull almost as good dps with a faster ship.

You can't balance turrets by giving them the same bonuses at launchers

You can't balance ships by giving them the same stats that other classes have.

Honestly, you're compairing beef and chicken here.

They're two totally different things
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-11-01 23:07:46 UTC
Does anyone other than Joe (who doesn't understand the issue) have any idea WHY the Caldari (and only Caldari) Missile Systems are the only faction weapon system better than the Meta 4 equiv?

Shouldn't all faction weapon systems be significantly better than their meta 4 version?

-FM
Goose99
#15 - 2011-11-01 23:49:08 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
Does anyone other than Joe (who doesn't understand the issue) have any idea WHY the Caldari (and only Caldari) Missile Systems are the only faction weapon system better than the Meta 4 equiv?

Shouldn't all faction weapon systems be significantly better than their meta 4 version?

-FM


It's meta 8, compares to RF's (both launcher and gun) meta 7?
If you ask me, what's out of line is t2 (meta 5) outdps faction (meta 7/8) instead of comparing guns to launchers of one faction.

Why did CCP favor Caldari with meta 8? Who knows.
u57I
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-11-01 23:50:33 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
Does anyone other than Joe (who doesn't understand the issue) have any idea WHY the Caldari (and only Caldari) Missile Systems are the only faction weapon system better than the Meta 4 equiv?

Shouldn't all faction weapon systems be significantly better than their meta 4 version?

-FM


You still don't get it after a whole page of replies.... *sigh*

You can't complain that missile and turret systems are not balanced......they are not suppose to be.

Peace.Through.Power.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-11-02 00:04:44 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
Does anyone other than Joe (who doesn't understand the issue) have any idea WHY the Caldari (and only Caldari) Missile Systems are the only faction weapon system better than the Meta 4 equiv?

Shouldn't all faction weapon systems be significantly better than their meta 4 version?

-FM


I love how you assume I don't know what I'm talking about, yet you're the one sitting here comparing two completely different things and assuming they should be the same.


You're trying to say that turrets and launchers should have the same dps, yet you fail to notice that hybrids dont' even have the same dps as projectiles, projectiles don't have the same dps as lasers. Hell, blasters and rails don't even have the same dps and they're both hybrids.

You're compairing stats of two completely different items and assuming they should be the same.

Through your thought process, all battleships should have the same dps, range, speed, tank, sig radius, available targets, cpu, powergrid, EVERYTHING.

There's a reason why they have different stats.

Think as hard as your little brain can and see if it truly makes sense for them to have the same stats....

To me it defeats the purpose of having different ships and modules.

If i go assuming this ship should have higher bonuses because this ship has higher bonuses, then i'm basically saying I want the exact same ship, I just want it to look different.

If you want the same stats that missiles have, then train for missiles and fly a missile boat.

Thank god you're not responsible for balancing Eve.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-11-02 00:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Fango Mango
Goose99 wrote:
Fango Mango wrote:
Does anyone other than Joe (who doesn't understand the issue) have any idea WHY the Caldari (and only Caldari) Missile Systems are the only faction weapon system better than the Meta 4 equiv?

Shouldn't all faction weapon systems be significantly better than their meta 4 version?

-FM


It's meta 8, compares to RF's (both launcher and gun) meta 7?
Why did CCP favor Caldari with meta 8? Who knows.


The Gallente Hybrid and Amarr Laser systems are both Meta 8 . . .


Goose99 wrote:

If you ask me, what's out of line is t2 (meta 5) outdps faction (meta 7/8) instead of comparing guns to launchers of one faction.


That's an example of the problem.
Caldari Faction launchers DO out-dps T2 (assuming they are both using the same ammo type).

Everyone else's Faction turrets get beats by T2 (assuming you have at least level 3 in the associate T2 skill, and are using the same ammo type)
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-11-02 00:13:52 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


I love how you assume I don't know what I'm talking about, yet you're the one sitting here comparing two completely different things and assuming they should be the same.


You're trying to say that turrets and launchers should have the same dps, yet you fail to notice that hybrids dont' even have the same dps as projectiles, projectiles don't have the same dps as lasers. Hell, blasters and rails don't even have the same dps and they're both hybrids.

You're compairing stats of two completely different items and assuming they should be the same.

Through your thought process, all battleships should have the same dps, range, speed, tank, sig radius, available targets, cpu, powergrid, EVERYTHING.

There's a reason why they have different stats.

Think as hard as your little brain can and see if it truly makes sense for them to have the same stats....

To me it defeats the purpose of having different ships and modules.

If i go assuming this ship should have higher bonuses because this ship has higher bonuses, then i'm basically saying I want the exact same ship, I just want it to look different.

If you want the same stats that missiles have, then train for missiles and fly a missile boat.

Thank god you're not responsible for balancing Eve.


OMG. Leave this thread. You do not understand math!!!

I am not saying that different weapon systems should have the same stats.

I am saying

IF Faction Weapon System A is X% better than Meta 4 System A
THEN Faction Weapon System B should be ~X% better than Meta 4 System B
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2011-11-02 00:47:15 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:

OMG. Leave this thread. You do not understand math!!!

I am not saying that different weapon systems should have the same stats.

I am saying

IF Faction Weapon System A is X% better than Meta 4 System A
THEN Faction Weapon System B should be ~X% better than Meta 4 System B



here's a bit of math for you.

Looking at all skills lvl 5, caldari 350mm railgun has the same dps as meta 4, yet fed navy has more dps...

So why are you comparing turrets to launchers, when two turrets of the same meta lvl being compared to the same meta 4 turret don't even have the same dps?

Again, I'm saying that you're comparing two completely different items, when 2 items that are almost the exact same don't even share the same stats.

stop comparing steak and chicken when you can't even compare the two chickens.
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