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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Alara IonStorm
#81 - 2011-11-01 17:20:17 UTC
Paragon Renegade wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Paragon Renegade wrote:

I don't recall saying the other races didn't need to be looked at.

Start with 1400mm Artillery and L Scorch.


Is there a disagreemnet here? I sure as hell don't see one.

You would only ask if you are looking for one.

Page Snipe.
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#82 - 2011-11-01 17:22:00 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

You would only ask if you are looking for one.

Page Snipe.


AC's > Snipers

Nub

:3

Just messin' wit' ya'

The pie is a tautology
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#83 - 2011-11-01 17:26:21 UTC
Remove all minmatar hulls from the game.

Except the Typhoon Fleet Issue.
Barakkus
#84 - 2011-11-01 17:27:31 UTC
Enough is enough, nerf Zarnak Wulf.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#85 - 2011-11-01 17:30:15 UTC
Barakkus wrote:
Enough is enough, nerf Zarnak Wulf.



Is that the new 5th race rookie ship?

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2011-11-01 17:36:54 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Zagam wrote:
I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!

Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.).
Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.

This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension.


A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention.



Strange, 'cane fleets are RARE, drake fleets are more common.
Clearly missiles must need nerfing by your reasoning, they are far more numerous than 'cane fleets.

Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point.

There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off.
In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero.

But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right?

-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more) 
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#87 - 2011-11-01 17:41:05 UTC
Its about tactics not making all ships vanilla flavour.

If a Hellcat fleet is kept at range, Alpha fleet rocks, if that Hellcat fleet gets a warpin due to great FCing/scouting Alpha fleet dies.

Tactics please, lets keep combat as tactical as we can, if you make all ships equal the game really does just come down to who brings more ships. Ships should NOT be equal, tehy should have advantages and disadvantages, keep combat interesting, or rather, make it even more interesting.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Barakkus
#88 - 2011-11-01 17:43:21 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
Barakkus wrote:
Enough is enough, nerf Zarnak Wulf.



Is that the new 5th race rookie ship?



I think it comes with 3 built in wcs.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#89 - 2011-11-01 22:46:16 UTC
Trin Javidan wrote:
it is not the gun type that is wrong its the ship layout. Actuve tank and passive armour tank recuire more power grip witch those both fail to have (see gallente). Take a look at the 2 best roaming ships for 0.0. The hurricane and the vaga. Its the slot leyout that is the problem, the dual neut cane is over powerd but only because of the 2 neuts and the falloff from those 2 or 3 tracking enhancers.

The shield extenders make it possibel to fit 2 gyro and tracking and 2 neuts,

its the slot layout that makes it overpowerd not the weapon system


ugh, you need to not look at specs as much as try and fly the fit you are speaking about

sure you have 2 neuts, big deal, if the neuts are the line where the cane becomes OP then you are the one with a problem, not the cane.

a fully fitted shield cane has a terrible tank, 35k or so and an awful recharge rate, all it does is give you a little time, and in some cases hardly any.
those big bad neuts are there pretty much for frig and ceptor defense.
if you try and get in to neut range, you are in someone else's neut range, and a heavy can drain an actively fighting cane in about 5-10 seconds.

there's a tradeoff for everything

an armor cane had much better tank (well... 10-15k better anyhow) but its gimped on the gyros and TEs so the best you can do is pop in sebos and a web or something in the mids and rocks on the highs because that 1600mm plate kills your neut power so now you have a fast lock slow boat with a marginal tank and bottom rung DPS

with the shield you get the DPS, you get the marginally effective neuts, better speed, long lock times and either better resists or a point, oh and don't forget the crappy tank

just ask the moon warriors how long my cane lasts when 20 of em alpha me. its about 10-15 seconds these days
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2011-11-01 22:51:35 UTC
What are you saying, minmatar just got massively nerfed!

Hail ammo will become significantly more expensive.

P

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2011-11-01 23:25:43 UTC
Paragon Renegade wrote:
Onictus wrote:

I dunno, in my neck of low-sec its almost exactly what eve-kills says.

Drakes, Canes, Rifters, Cyna's Vaga, snipe macks nano-pests and the occasional PL bait maller...that we align blow to hell, and dodge the incoming super blob.


Now, just to clarify a point; I'd like if the other factions were beefed-up a bit, which they're doing in the winter anyway. My stance is that nerfing the minmatar ships so close to the update would be a short-sighted decision & a bad move.

:3



I never said to nerf anything.
Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
#92 - 2011-11-01 23:29:41 UTC
+1 to nerfing Minmatar. Love it if only for the tears.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#93 - 2011-11-01 23:31:51 UTC
Rhinanna wrote:
Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point.

There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off.
In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero.

But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right?


And what is it I'm asking for really? A rollback of short range ammo to it's old damage? That 'nerf' if you want to call it that is undercut by the new Hail buff. At least you'll have to stick to explosive damage if you want the superior DPS. Or matching the falloff bonus to the optimal bonus on tracking enhancers? Pulling back from 41km+ falloff on the fastest cruisers of the game surely would put them out of business. Roll

We still get the alpha on artillery. We still get the damage selection type. We still get the falloff tiers from the projectile buff as well as the tracking increase. We're just going to pull our range - on the fastest ships in the game - back a bit as well as get our DPS potential back in line with the other races.

Look at the total package:
Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game.

This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2011-11-02 00:23:44 UTC
TE's certainly need nerfing down to 15/15.

The 15-30 split heavily favours projectiles as they get the big boost on their biggest stat.

Just making that change will at least go towards balancing out the weapons a bit.

The proposed removal of their 9% DPS boost will be good, as it'll certainly help make blasters seem to have a bigger edge (like CCP says they do, but don't).
Running Clam
#95 - 2011-11-02 00:25:45 UTC
Hmmm.. No
Amro One
One.
#96 - 2011-11-02 00:30:59 UTC
When can i buy Gold ammo?
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2011-11-02 00:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Rhinanna wrote:
Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point.

There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off.
In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero.

But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right?


And what is it I'm asking for really? A rollback of short range ammo to it's old damage? That 'nerf' if you want to call it that is undercut by the new Hail buff. At least you'll have to stick to explosive damage if you want the superior DPS. Or matching the falloff bonus to the optimal bonus on tracking enhancers? Pulling back from 41km+ falloff on the fastest cruisers of the game surely would put them out of business. Roll

We still get the alpha on artillery. We still get the damage selection type. We still get the falloff tiers from the projectile buff as well as the tracking increase. We're just going to pull our range - on the fastest ships in the game - back a bit as well as get our DPS potential back in line with the other races.

Look at the total package:
Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game.

This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have.


Again, lrn2 falloff. Show me a Vaga which can do more than ~150 turret DPS at 40km? Show me a Vaga which does this while having a tank on par with your typical armor Zealot? I'm very curious as to what sort of modules you're fitting to get those stats. Roll

There is no need to further reduce their range or DPS. The only ships on which this is justifiable, imo, are Angel ships, due to obsoleting the respective Minmatar ships in every possible way. (See: Cynabals compared to Vagas, Machariels compared to fleet Tempests) - this problem is not present with other pirate factions, as there is still plenty of reason to use Zealots over Phantasms, Ishtars over Vigilants, etc.

I'd also like to point out Minmatar's tremendously low sensor strength, which is a major crutch when it comes to the state of today's ECM/ecm drones. Oh, and another thing you're wrong about is dronebays: Minmatar actually have the third largest, after Gallente and Amarr.

So no, I don't think most Minmatar ships are in need of nerfing.
Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
#98 - 2011-11-02 01:05:14 UTC
This whinny fix my stuff that I care about but break your stuff I don't care about is just silly.

If the only way people believe will buff their preferred races ships is to nerf another races ships. Then you certainly do not have any idea what you are doing.

Stop getting all teary eyed and whinny, just because hybrids are not getting your dream buff of wtfbqpawnness.

When CCP looks at things they do it by looking at the roles they play, and trying to make what is not working so well work with a bit more effectiveness. There not trying to over-buff or make another flavor of the month.

You are certainly not going to get your dream buff.

Projectiles did not when they got looked at and nether will you.

Crying to get another race nerfed because that is the only way you feel will fix your race, is just an absurd way to do things and I am glad CCP as enough since to ignore such stuff.
Hannibal Ord
Fer-De-Lance
#99 - 2011-11-02 01:39:56 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Rhinanna wrote:
Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point.

There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off.
In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero.

But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right?


And what is it I'm asking for really? A rollback of short range ammo to it's old damage? That 'nerf' if you want to call it that is undercut by the new Hail buff. At least you'll have to stick to explosive damage if you want the superior DPS. Or matching the falloff bonus to the optimal bonus on tracking enhancers? Pulling back from 41km+ falloff on the fastest cruisers of the game surely would put them out of business. Roll

We still get the alpha on artillery. We still get the damage selection type. We still get the falloff tiers from the projectile buff as well as the tracking increase. We're just going to pull our range - on the fastest ships in the game - back a bit as well as get our DPS potential back in line with the other races.

Look at the total package:
Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game.

This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have.


Again, lrn2 falloff. Show me a Vaga which can do more than ~150 turret DPS at 40km? Show me a Vaga which does this while having a tank on par with your typical armor Zealot? I'm very curious as to what sort of modules you're fitting to get those stats. Roll

There is no need to further reduce their range or DPS. The only ships on which this is justifiable, imo, are Angel ships, due to obsoleting the respective Minmatar ships in every possible way. (See: Cynabals compared to Vagas, Machariels compared to fleet Tempests) - this problem is not present with other pirate factions, as there is still plenty of reason to use Zealots over Phantasms, Ishtars over Vigilants, etc.

I'd also like to point out Minmatar's tremendously low sensor strength, which is a major crutch when it comes to the state of today's ECM/ecm drones. Oh, and another thing you're wrong about is dronebays: Minmatar actually have the third largest, after Gallente and Amarr.

So no, I don't think most Minmatar ships are in need of nerfing.



And they don't lock fastest either.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#100 - 2011-11-02 01:56:28 UTC
Fastest lock time. Lowest ECM strength. Falcons and Rooks are not as numerous as they used to be. I'm not including faction ships like the Dramiel in the lock time comparison.