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Sig Radius vs Angular Velocity/Tracking
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Deso Dexarian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-10-26 13:54:12 UTC
I'm having a hard time understanding the relationship between the 2. My example is, I am wanting to use a MWD to keep a bit of range and keep my angular velocity/speed higher than usual to try and get under the tracking. Although, with the MWD on, my sig radius is huge. The strategy seems fail to me. Is it a good idea to just hit the MWD once to get the range and then turn it off when i have that range and only juice it when needed (again though, the angular velocity/speed would go down)??

I guess, in my example, am i just canceling out everything i'm trying to do by turning the MWD on?

Thanks
Goose99
#2 - 2011-10-26 14:40:55 UTC
Deso Dexarian wrote:
I'm having a hard time understanding the relationship between the 2. My example is, I am wanting to use a MWD to keep a bit of range and keep my angular velocity/speed higher than usual to try and get under the tracking. Although, with the MWD on, my sig radius is huge. The strategy seems fail to me. Is it a good idea to just hit the MWD once to get the range and then turn it off when i have that range and only juice it when needed (again though, the angular velocity/speed would go down)??

I guess, in my example, am i just canceling out everything i'm trying to do by turning the MWD on?

Thanks


It's "angular" velocity. The further you are from the guns firing at you, the lower it is. You get under tracking by staying close.
Deso Dexarian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-10-26 14:49:20 UTC
Ahh right, so it is a fail tactic lol. So if I were to keep close, while the MWD is on, would that negate the fact that i'm under there tracking? I guess whats the relationship between sig radius and angular velocity?
Dark Pangolin
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#4 - 2011-10-26 15:03:23 UTC
Deso Dexarian wrote:
Ahh right, so it is a fail tactic lol. So if I were to keep close, while the MWD is on, would that negate the fact that i'm under there tracking? I guess whats the relationship between sig radius and angular velocity?



The short answer is yes. Use the MWD in purst to stay at range or get in close then turn it off. The speed uptick is offset by the sig radius uptick (Though this is not a 1-1 trade off with factions MWDs and in Interceptors...in which cases you may be ok with having the mwd on (600%+ speed increase but only 400%+ sig increase)

In general if you are trying to "get under guns" make sure the guns are at least one size category larger than your ship can fit. Frigs get under Med/Large guns, Cruisers/BCs get under Large guns, BSs get under Capital guns. AB is best when trying this tactic. The vaunted Dual-Prop Taranis is probably the best/most cost effective example of this. MWD to get in close, then AB to get in "Under Guns"
Deso Dexarian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-10-26 15:07:32 UTC
ok, thanks. I'm using a proteus. I can get an angular velocity of .24 and higher, although this is with my MWD turned on. This is with an orbit of about 1600 to 2k. I will try this same thing with an AB
Joel Mi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-10-26 18:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Joel Mi
Goose99 wrote:
Deso Dexarian wrote:
I'm having a hard time understanding the relationship between the 2. My example is, I am wanting to use a MWD to keep a bit of range and keep my angular velocity/speed higher than usual to try and get under the tracking. Although, with the MWD on, my sig radius is huge. The strategy seems fail to me. Is it a good idea to just hit the MWD once to get the range and then turn it off when i have that range and only juice it when needed (again though, the angular velocity/speed would go down)??

I guess, in my example, am i just canceling out everything i'm trying to do by turning the MWD on?

Thanks


It's "angular" velocity. The further you are from the guns firing at you, the lower it is. You get under tracking by staying close.


Trying to learn something useful from here, i also want to know a couple of things.


What about the Tranversal and radial velocity? whats the importance of this?


Also, and regarding the angular velocity vs trackink, what other in-flight techniques are usually used to keep the angular velocity higher than your opponents tracking to escape the firing or minimize incoming damage and the other way..when your opponents angular velocity is higher than your tracking, how to decrease the opponents angular, so my guns can keep up and do best damage possible?
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-10-26 19:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Never engage or retreat from an enemy in a straight line.
This will keep angular down, which means it will get you killed.

For engaging or retreating, there's the technique of spiraling. Basically, you move the camera so the enemy ship is
in the middle of the screen and you doubleclick onto one edge of the screen. When the enemies ship moved close
to a corner, you re-set the camera and do the same thing again until you're close enough / far enough away.

Just remember to never engage an opponent directly and instead do it tangential.*


I hope the explanation is right, i always just look at the screen and have Angular Velocity set up in my overview
to do things right.

You can't separate your opponents angular from your own angular velocity. Both are the same.

Try smaller guns and or using ammo that gives a tracking bonus, like depleted uranium for autocannons.
Else ... tracking enhancers or tracking computers, rigs, implants and of course, skills.

Please note that webbing your enemy also reduces angular velocity,
but only if he was actually moving in the first place.


Let me refer you to this thread,
which has much better explanations and way more detail than what i could come up right now.


*
In case of "hu?" ->

Imagine the enemy is sitting inside of a big sphere. You are x km away and want to engage it.
Your goal is to orbit it, so imagine the sphere has the size of your orbit.
Preferable, the imaginary sphere is bigger than the orbit you desire,
but once you reach the sphere it is rather easy to close in and orbit tighter.

So, to get close, you do not engage the enemy, but engage the surface of the sphere.
When you reach that point, you can start to orbit it or make the orbit tighter over time.

Or, you just use a mwd and try to directly engage him as fast as you can,
which can work really well if you're faster than his locking time
(visual clues: what ship is he in, is he sensor boosted?)
or if his RoF is bad enough so you won't get too many hits.

This only works if you have enough EHP to actually survive the few seconds you need to get close.


Hope this helped. :)
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-10-26 19:42:02 UTC

Oh and ... remember one thing.

When you engage him directly,
you should watch out what happens,
because when you use "close in" there's this chance that you hit him and bump him,
which means that you are a sitting duck for a few seconds,
which is something you want to avoid at all cost.

You can try "orbit" instead, which will also engage him, but differently.

Man, i haven't done this for quite a while, but these informations should be 99% accurate.
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#9 - 2011-10-27 01:23:51 UTC
That all sounds right. Your best bet if trying to quickly close distance is to set a very tight orbit instead of hitting approach. 500-1000m for frigates, and more for less agile ships, you want to pull into your orbit with the minimum of slowdown/collisions.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#10 - 2011-10-27 09:50:14 UTC
If you are planning to play the 15-24km kiting, don't count on a damage reduction due to tracking at all. Just have way to shut down their range capabilities (td's, damp's) and blast them away from range. Not many ships can reach to 20k to deal their damages.

If you really are planning to tank the enemy by superior angular velocity/signature, you need to use an afterburner and stick close to enemy. Even then, a good pilot will devise ways to reduce your angular velocity by manual flying.
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#11 - 2011-10-28 14:30:08 UTC
You should also be careful about switching from mwd to ab while in orbit. A big change in orbit speed means a change in the distance you orbit. Going from mwd to ab creates a situation where your ship will fly almost straight towards the target for a moment to adjust the radius of your orbit. This can be the end of you if youre well into your tank already.

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Stalking Mantis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-10-30 10:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Stalking Mantis
You need to understand damage is calculated by a very long mathematical equation that you can look up in EVElopedia. Whithout turning this into a calculus class though this is what you need to know.

The equation is made up of all of the below factors and they all change from one second to another so while your flying and someone is shooting at you the server is doing a long mathematical equation to calculate the damage you will take the value of this is changing and never constant (assuming you are both moving).

The deciding factors for gun damage in eve are:

Signature radius of the target: The larger the target the easier for guns/missiles to hit. This is tied in directly to the Signature resolution of the gun. So if a missle/gun deals out 300 damage and your signature resolution is 50 then you will absorb whatever the percentage of 50 is to 300.

Signature resolution of the gun: the damage of the gun is distributed evenly throughout the signature resolution radius of the gun (check gunn attributes they all have a signature resolution stat). e.g. if a gun deals 300 damage and the gun signature resolution is 125 meters then the basic damage is calculated as 300/125=2.4 damage per meter of space the target occupies. Therefore the more space the target occupies the more damage is absorbed.

Target Speed: If the tracking speed of a gun is faster than the moving speed of the target it will land hits. This is directly tied into transversal speed of the target though.

Transversal velocity of the target is at zero when a ship is moving directly away or towards another ship. If the transversal speed of a target is more than the tracking speed of the gun then the gun will not hit and vice versa

Optimal Range: within a turrets optimal range theoretically the gun has a 100% of landing a hit (provided no other factors such as speed are in effect)

Falloff: Any target beyond a ships optimal range fall into a guns ‘Falloff’ range. The falloff of a gun means a reduction in the hit percentage from 100% (at optimal) to 0% at twice the falloff number. Hit chances decreasing the farther the target is. e.g. if a gun has an optimal range of 10K and a falloff of 15K then the chances of landing a hit at (40K) 10+2x15=0%. With an ever increasing percentage chance the closer the target gets to optimal.

Angular Velocity: is the speed factor of both you and the target given both of you are moving. The more you are moving in the same general direction the lower it is. The more you are moving in opposite directions the higher it is. Think of it as it is easier for you to shoot a balloon in the back seat of a car that is traveling next to you on the highway at the same speed while you are driving next to him in the same direction (zero angular velocity) than it would be to shoot the same balloon if you were standing on the side of the highway with the car driving by (higher angular velocity) or even driving a speeding car on the opposite side of the highway driving in the opposite direction (highest angular velocity).

Also with missles:

Explosion Radius: a missiles damage is distributed evenly over the explosion radius. e.g. a missile has a damage of 100 and an explosion radius of 50 meters then each meter will absorb 100/50=2 damage of the missiles explosion.

Explosion Velocity: This is how fast the damage of the missile leaves the centre of the ‘explosion’ to fill up the explosion radius. If a ship is moving faster than the explosion velocity of a missile then the ship has a higher chance of being outside the explosion velocity or at the very least at the edge of the explosion radius therefore reducing significantly the amount of the ships radius being withing the explosion velocity therefore damage absorption from the explosion.

This is why people use stasis webs and target painters as they reduce speed (easier to track/harder to escape explosion radius) and increase signature radius of the target making it absorb more of the damage that is being spread out by the guns signature radius/missile explosion radius.

-Mantis

Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#13 - 2011-11-01 22:02:01 UTC
Joel Mi wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Deso Dexarian wrote:
Stuff


It's "angular" velocity. The further you are from the guns firing at you, the lower it is. You get under tracking by staying close.


Trying to learn something useful from here, i also want to know a couple of things.


What about the Tranversal and radial velocity? whats the importance of this?


Also, and regarding the angular velocity vs trackink, what other in-flight techniques are usually used to keep the angular velocity higher than your opponents tracking to escape the firing or minimize incoming damage and the other way..when your opponents angular velocity is higher than your tracking, how to decrease the opponents angular, so my guns can keep up and do best damage possible?


Radial Velocity isn't very important in determining how well you hit. Radial velocity describes how fast your target is treveling towards or away from you. Your guns don't really care about this.

Transversal Velocity describes how-much sideways movement a target has in-relation to you. The problem with transversal is that it doesn't account for range. A target with 500m/s transversal at 1000m is way harder for your guns to track than a target with 500m/s transversal at 70000m.

The one you want to pay attention to is ANGULAR VELOCITY. This tells you how many degrees/sec your target is moving in relation to you. This is the same stat your guns use to determine how well they track. If you "show info" on your guns it will tell you how many degrees/second they are able to track. If your target's angular is higher than your gun's you will miss more often.

What does all this mean? (This is the answer to the last part of your question.)
To achieve a high angular and make-it harder for your opponent to hit you, get-in-close, and go fast.
When getting-in close, don't go straight-at your opponent. (This reduces your angular.)
When going fast, don't use a MWD. (This increases your Sig Radius and negates your angular.)

To decrease the effectiveness of the above tactics, and keep angular as low as possible:
Keep the range high.

If you can't keep the range high (or to even further reduce angular at long-ranges), look-at your target. (Actually change views.)
Align the camera so you're looking directly at his exhaust, zoom-out a little (so his ship isn't filling the whole screen), double-click as close to his ship as possible without clicking on his ship.
If that seemed complicated, it's not. Basically that's just a very detailed description describing to-you how to fly in the same direction as your target.
If you fly the same direction as your target, and go the same speed, your angular will be as close to 0 as possible.

If your target is way-faster, there's only so much you can do...