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Los pollos hermanos, WTF?

Author
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-04-23 16:28:26 UTC
I was being facetious, as you well know, but ok. I'd actually argue that they're getting a lot closer with TV shows showing on both sides of the Atlantic. In England, some people get... upset at "Americanisms, but I read an article that nearly as many British words are crossing back over the other way.

I still don't think they're different languages, more like dialects. I think there is some difference between Latin American Spanish and Portuguese, and the laguagues spoken in Europe. Are they considered different languages?
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#22 - 2013-04-23 16:56:21 UTC
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
I was being facetious, as you well know, but ok. I'd actually argue that they're getting a lot closer with TV shows showing on both sides of the Atlantic. In England, some people get... upset at "Americanisms, but I read an article that nearly as many British words are crossing back over the other way.

I still don't think they're different languages, more like dialects. I think there is some difference between Latin American Spanish and Portuguese, and the laguagues spoken in Europe. Are they considered different languages?

Yeah, I kinda figured.

Interwebs and such fight the drift, but we're adding loan-words from so many languanges at this point that I don't think the drift can ever be halted. There may at some future date a general merging of languanges from similar roots, but we're going to drift a lot more more before we start converging again.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

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Hrothgar Nilsson
#23 - 2013-04-23 22:11:03 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Yeah, I kinda figured.

Interwebs and such fight the drift, but we're adding loan-words from so many languanges at this point that I don't think the drift can ever be halted. There may at some future date a general merging of languanges from similar roots, but we're going to drift a lot more more before we start converging again.

Pretty sure just about every linguist of the English language in the world would disagree with you on that one.

Standardization is the rule and continues to be in England, the US, etc. The trend in dialects has been that of converging and leveling and nothing's changed.

There's no second n near the end of language, btw.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#24 - 2013-04-23 22:24:59 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Yeah, I kinda figured.

Interwebs and such fight the drift, but we're adding loan-words from so many languanges at this point that I don't think the drift can ever be halted. There may at some future date a general merging of languanges from similar roots, but we're going to drift a lot more more before we start converging again.

Pretty sure just about every linguist of the English language in the world would disagree with you on that one.

Standardization is the rule and continues to be in England, the US, etc. The trend in dialects has been that of converging and leveling and nothing's changed.

There's no second n near the end of language, btw.

Fingers don't always know what they're doing. P

Not at all sure I'd agree with that disagreement. Blink I'm rather widely travelled, and work for an international company. Observation (which I admit =! data) suggests otherwise. But what do I know? That's the subjective observation of a life-long globe-trotter. Take it with all the salt you deem necessary.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Daimon Kaiera
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-04-23 22:25:16 UTC
AeonExo wrote:
Came to thread thinking they've opened Los Pollos Hermanos IRL, only to be disappointed :(.



I have to say it. I thought your avatar was an ass when I first looked at it.

.... . .-.. .--. / .. / .... .- ...- . / ..-. .- .-.. .-.. . -. / .- -. -.. / .. / -.-. .- -. -. --- - / --. . - / ..- .--. / ... - --- .--. - .... .. ... / ... .. --. -. .- - ..- .-. . / .. -.. . .- / .. ... / -. --- - / ... - --- .-.. . -. / ... - --- .--.

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#26 - 2013-04-23 22:37:00 UTC
Daimon Kaiera wrote:
AeonExo wrote:
Came to thread thinking they've opened Los Pollos Hermanos IRL, only to be disappointed :(.



I have to say it. I thought your avatar was an ass when I first looked at it.



Who isn't an ass on the forums?

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Hrothgar Nilsson
#27 - 2013-04-23 23:09:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
silens vesica wrote:
Fingers don't always know what they're doing. P

Not at all sure I'd agree with that disagreement. Blink I'm rather widely travelled, and work for an international company. Observation (which I admit =! data) suggests otherwise. But what do I know? That's the subjective observation of a life-long globe-trotter. Take it with all the salt you deem necessary.

There's one really rather simple to detect dialect leveling.

Listen to young people from a given area speak. Then listen to their grandparents.

The last hundred years have been a holocaust of sorts with regards to regional and local dialects. Not just in English-speaking areas, but across the world. In Germany the Niederdeutsche and Saxon dialects have or are dying out being replaced by High German. In France, Provencal/Occitan are other local dialects by Paris French. In Spain, Leonese, Asturian, Aragonese by Castillian. In Britain one of the most dramatic examples is Scots falling out of use in favor of standard English, and otherwise in the rest of Britain local dialects have been transforming toward the standard English of that country, or fading away/disappearing.

It goes without saying universal education, mass media, instant communications, the rise of the nation-state, bodies governing languages and their grammar and spelling, the creation of standard dictionaries, and the fact that governments use a single dialect and no others of their national language in governing, jurisprudence, etc. all contribute toward that trend.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#28 - 2013-04-23 23:50:05 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Fingers don't always know what they're doing. P

Not at all sure I'd agree with that disagreement. Blink I'm rather widely travelled, and work for an international company. Observation (which I admit =! data) suggests otherwise. But what do I know? That's the subjective observation of a life-long globe-trotter. Take it with all the salt you deem necessary.

There's one really rather simple to detect dialect leveling.

Listen to young people from a given area speak. Then listen to their grandparents.

The last hundred years have been a holocaust of sorts with regards to regional and local dialects. Not just in English-speaking areas, but across the world. In Germany the Niederdeutsche and Saxon dialects have or are dying out being replaced by High German. In France, Provencal/Occitan are other local dialects by Paris French. In Spain, Leonese, Asturian, Aragonese by Castillian. In Britain one of the most dramatic examples is Scots falling out of use in favor of standard English, and otherwise in the rest of Britain local dialects have been transforming toward the standard English of that country, or fading away/disappearing.

It goes without saying universal education, mass media, instant communications, the rise of the nation-state, bodies governing languages and their grammar and spelling, the creation of standard dictionaries, and the fact that governments use a single dialect and no others of their national language in governing, jurisprudence, etc. all contribute toward that trend.
Heh.
Then you run across folks from the Southeast US that need a foriegner to translate so fellow Americans can understand him, or 'english' speaking cultures in inner cities whom can't understand you, and you can't understand them - they're using the same words, but the meaning is completely unintelligible. And it's growing worse - I've been in cities where neighboring gangs need translators, because neither can understand the other well enough to decide it they're friends, or need to start shanking each other.

Among other things in my life, I've been a Service Recruiter, and I can tell you I've run across some astonishing variations in language - sometimes over the distance of a few hundred yards, despite technically being the same base lingo. Loanwods, re-purposed words, and shifts between denotation and connotation make a god-awful hash of things.

But, as I say - I'm a subjective observer, rather than a linguist. Use salt as seems necessary.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Hrothgar Nilsson
#29 - 2013-04-24 00:42:18 UTC
You come across someone who has more recently come across differing styles of speech in the past few years than, say, a door-to-door salesman who has been traveling the breadth and width of England or the US for the past 50 years.

There's what you may think is going on, and what is actually, factually going on. Convergence and leveling is happening, dialects are moving toward the "standard" form, and hundreds of local dialects have died out altogether in English alone, completely disappeared off the face of Earth, in the last century.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#30 - 2013-04-24 01:30:59 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
You come across someone who has more recently come across differing styles of speech in the past few years than, say, a door-to-door salesman who has been traveling the breadth and width of England or the US for the past 50 years.
That's actually a pretty fair description of me. Plus add some time overseas.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#31 - 2013-04-24 01:41:45 UTC
silens vesica wrote:

Then you run across folks from the Southeast US that need a foriegner to translate so fellow Americans can understand him, or 'english' speaking cultures in inner cities whom can't understand you, and you can't understand them - they're using the same words, but the meaning is completely unintelligible. And it's growing worse - I've been in cities where neighboring gangs need translators, because neither can understand the other well enough to decide it they're friends, or need to start shanking each other.
But, as I say - I'm a subjective observer, rather than a linguist. Use salt as seems necessary.

I don't know what to make of this from a British perspective, do you mean immigrant gangs that make a synthetic hybrid of their native tounge and English? Is this across America or concentrated on any particular bracket of individuals?

My experience on the internet has been more of a convergence between American and British English, surprisingly British English is stubbornly holding its own and winning in many cases. Use of the word Cellphone and Fall are on the decline in the US East in favour of Mobile and Autumn, apparently because of Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter bizarre as that sounds.

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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#32 - 2013-04-24 02:25:27 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
silens vesica wrote:

Then you run across folks from the Southeast US that need a foriegner to translate so fellow Americans can understand him, or 'english' speaking cultures in inner cities whom can't understand you, and you can't understand them - they're using the same words, but the meaning is completely unintelligible. And it's growing worse - I've been in cities where neighboring gangs need translators, because neither can understand the other well enough to decide it they're friends, or need to start shanking each other.
But, as I say - I'm a subjective observer, rather than a linguist. Use salt as seems necessary.

I don't know what to make of this from a British perspective, do you mean immigrant gangs that make a synthetic hybrid of their native tounge and English? Is this across America or concentrated on any particular bracket of individuals?

Immigrant gangs contribute to this, but when someone's family has been in the country three of four generations, that distinction goes away. Sometimes it's a synthetic hybrid in that it has been done deliberately to obfuscate and to create a barrier / linguistic boundary. Other cases I've epxperienced genuine borrowing from third cultures' languages - happens where two 'imigrant' communities align side-by-side. Once a loan-word comes into common usage, I no longer consider it foriegn to English. But the communities use the words differently. Also in my experience, 'imigrant' comunities and especially the gangs that inhabit them, use true English words in... odd ways. Again, quite possibly to define boundaries.

As a Recruiter, I went a lot of places where I was distinctly an alien. And treated as such. You had to learn the local patois before you could get any useful work done. Wasn't always easy. Once you'd learned to communicate, you'd usually get some respect for having made the effort.

Quote:
My experience on the internet has been more of a convergence between American and British English, surprisingly British English is stubbornly holding its own and winning in many cases. Use of the word Cellphone and Fall are on the decline in the US East in favour of Mobile and Autumn, apparently because of Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter bizarre as that sounds.
'Mobile' is no suprise - It's shorter, and Americans usualy prefer speed. "Autumn" on the other hand seems a mis-call. Certainly, I've been using that word since I was a child - as has my entire family, including my grandmother, born in the 19th century.

If you look through my posts, however, I'm sure you'll find more than a few UK turns-of-phrase. Working for a multi-national HQ'd in London will do that for you. Blink

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#33 - 2013-04-24 02:31:33 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
You come across someone who has more recently come across differing styles of speech in the past few years than, say, a door-to-door salesman who has been traveling the breadth and width of England or the US for the past 50 years.
That's actually a pretty fair description of me. Plus add some time overseas.
Amplifying: The longest I've ever lived anywhere is 10 years. I've been more than half-way around the globe and back again, and in 47 of the 50 states. My work and life has taken me from inner city to serious boondocks, and everywhere in between.

I may not have been a door-to-door salesman, but as a Recruiter, I'll guarantee I did every bit as much hand-grabbing and chatting folks up as one. As a delivery driver, I did a lot of face-to-face too, and as a sailor, I saw, worked, and lived with folks from all 50 states and several other countries (including Canadian, Dutch, Mexcian, Fillipino, Saudi Arabia, and Scots).

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Hrothgar Nilsson
#34 - 2013-04-24 08:50:56 UTC
Quote:
Immigrant gangs contribute to this, but when someone's family has been in the country three of four generations, that distinction goes away. Sometimes it's a synthetic hybrid in that it has been done deliberately to obfuscate and to create a barrier / linguistic boundary.

That's called a cant, e.g. thieves' cant. They've been around for thousands of years. They're not dialects.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#35 - 2013-04-24 14:55:34 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Quote:
Immigrant gangs contribute to this, but when someone's family has been in the country three of four generations, that distinction goes away. Sometimes it's a synthetic hybrid in that it has been done deliberately to obfuscate and to create a barrier / linguistic boundary.

That's called a cant, e.g. thieves' cant. They've been around for thousands of years. They're not dialects.

Like I said: Not a linguist. Thanks for the expansion of my vocabulary, though. Cool

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

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