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Current cloaky camper game mechanic pro v. con debate

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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-04-23 20:17:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:

How is an industrialist to know if the cloaky camper is afk or not? If the industrialist can't know if the camper is afk or not, it is only prudent to assume they are not afk, even it that assumption is incorrect 22 hours a day.

I'll rephrase.... contributing to the, possibly misconception, assertion by some, that there is a blue donut in null.

Define cry? Wanting to have a debate? Wanting to have someone attempt to counter my argument, while presenting a clear and concise counter argument? If that is how you define cry, then you have a messed up dictionary.


dscan, probes. really not difficult to figure out if some one is trying to probe you down in your grav site.

define cry: your posting history. it's a salty waterfall.



They don't need probes after they have probed down all the sites. By the time the claoky shows up on dscan, there is not enough time to get exhumer out before the cyno goes up.


Most of my posts are of the "please do not change" variety to counter the (using your definition of whine) whines of people calling for nerfs of high sec, CONCORD, local, npc corps, etc. Oh, the wonderful taste of the tears of the griefers that can't profitably killl us carebears that tank our exhumers, stay in high sec, and drop to NPC corp when a war dec happens. LOLs.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2013-04-23 20:19:13 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
By the time the claoky shows up on dscan, there is not enough time to get exhumer out before the cyno goes up.
Learn to fly an exhumer. What you're describing has nothing to do with AFK cloaking.
MrDiao
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#23 - 2013-04-23 20:19:41 UTC
Fundamentally people who saying "They don't kill since they are AFK" are just sort of hypocritical. Manipulating the meaning of word "AFK" to make it suits their need wouldn't have much convincing power and this sort of threads will pop up again and again.
To be precise, for example, does "AFK mining" means the miner do not mine?

There could be other many good reasons to support the cloak camping/afk cloaking tactic, but "AFK so not killing" is not the one.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#24 - 2013-04-23 20:23:08 UTC
MrDiao wrote:
Fundamentally people who saying "They don't kill since they are AFK" are just sort of hypocritical. Manipulating the meaning of word "AFK" to make it suits their need wouldn't have much convincing power and this sort of threads will pop up again and again.
You're talking about the “remove AFKers” side, presumably, since they're trying to manipulate AFK to mean someone who's actually at the keyboard and out to get them…

Quote:
To be precise, for example, does "AFK mining" means the miner do not mine?
Of course not. You can mine without being at the keyboard. Compare this to AFK cloaking, which means the character is not doing anything other than maybe moving in a straight line.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-04-23 20:23:14 UTC
I don't see anything wrong with AFK cloak camping.

I mean obvioiusly they can play the game anyway they want to and if that means wasting time sitting in a system all day instead of actually playing the game, I can't think of a better way to spend those subscription dollars.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Dave Stark
#26 - 2013-04-23 20:24:19 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:

How is an industrialist to know if the cloaky camper is afk or not? If the industrialist can't know if the camper is afk or not, it is only prudent to assume they are not afk, even it that assumption is incorrect 22 hours a day.

I'll rephrase.... contributing to the, possibly misconception, assertion by some, that there is a blue donut in null.

Define cry? Wanting to have a debate? Wanting to have someone attempt to counter my argument, while presenting a clear and concise counter argument? If that is how you define cry, then you have a messed up dictionary.


dscan, probes. really not difficult to figure out if some one is trying to probe you down in your grav site.

define cry: your posting history. it's a salty waterfall.



They don't need probes after they have probed down all the sites. By the time the claoky shows up on dscan, there is not enough time to get exhumer out before the cyno goes up.


Most of my posts are of the "please do not change" variety to counter the (using your definition of whine) whines of people calling for nerfs of high sec, CONCORD, local, npc corps, etc. Oh, the wonderful taste of the tears of the griefers that can't profitably killl us carebears that tank our exhumers, stay in high sec, and drop to NPC corp when a war dec happens. LOLs.



i defy any one, to enter a system and warp to your grav site in less time than it takes you to warp out. much less throw up a cyno.
"but if they're already in the system...." then don't undock in a non combat ship.

no, most of your posts are just whinging like a *****. i've seen two of your threads get locked where you threw your rattle out the pram and threatened to quit. ccp didn't give a ****, and nor do we.
FourierTransformer
#27 - 2013-04-23 20:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: FourierTransformer
Ok....setting aside the fact that no one in the history of eve has ever been killed by an afk cloaker:

Let's say there's a lone cloaky in your system and you want to run an industrial op, or go ratting, plexing, whatever. What's the counter?

Bring a blackbird! Even if he decloaks and tackles one of your plexers/industrialists, you jam him and no one dies. Blackbirds are cheap, easy to skill, and very effective. Amazing! Bringing one combat ship counters another combat ship. Who would have thought such a thing was possible?

Now that your afk cloaker problem has been solved and your system is out of lockdown, please consider donating a portion of your proceeds to this character as a sign of appreciation.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#28 - 2013-04-23 20:26:34 UTC
I will break this down again for everyone who hasnt seen this before.

AFK CLOAKY CAMPER.

CLOAKY - when a cloak is active, no modules can be used, defensive or offensive. Also, you cannot even target another player while cloaked.

AFK - Away from keyboard. This one is a little self explainatory. The person isnt at their keyboard. A person who is not at their keyboard cannot activate modules, target, decloak, warp to, pass along intel, anything. The keyboard has no input, therefore nothing will happen.

now, both of these by themselves constitute no threat. Putting them both together pretty much eliminates the threat completely.

Minds = Blown.

Now the REAL THREAT is.....

THE NON-AFK CLOAKY CAMPER!!!!!!!!!!

This person is cloaked...but is AT his keyboard...actively hunting you. He is also probably peering at you from that crack in your closet door, or between the slits in your blinds. He is a crafty devil, warping to random belts, actively D-scanning...probably flying at you right now waiting for you to declak him so he can point you and drop his cyno.

This guy is the real threat. the other little guy..well, dont you worry about that little guy...he isnt even at his computer. Hes making a sandwich and watchin Frends re-runs while chuckling to himself that he has completely shut down your activities.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#29 - 2013-04-23 20:27:14 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:


The other place in EVE where the effective defense to every offense breaks down, is the cloaky camper. If you want to shut down an enemy's industrial base, all you need is a cloaky black ops fleet and a bunch of cloaky campers with cynos. There is no effective defense to this offense.

They can log in, go AFK, and shut you down 24 hours a day, even when they are AFK.

You can't scan down cyno ship. You can't go after the cloaked up attack fleet. You can't secure your area well enough to keep them from getting in, in the first place. You can't jam the cyno. You can't have a counter strike fleet sitting around active for 24 hours a day just in case the black ops fleet attacks.


This is 100% wrong all around. What my group does is form a defense fleet and continue ratting with Tech2 ships and mining with tech1 barges. All ships are in defense fleet and every ship that can hold a cyno and LO does so. If we get jumped, all friendly ships in system except the miners warp to the person in need.

If there aren't enough people for a ratting defense fleet, the ratter/miner shoudl fit MWD + cloak (and for the miners either fire up a hauler alt or get someone to come along with a hauler) and go rat/mine in un-upgraded systems. I call it "Operation Damn the lights are on, scatter like roachs because they can't stomp us ALL".

Just because you can't figure out how to ruin a cloaky campers plans, that doesn't mean there is a problem.

My god, 1st you say that you don't think suicide ganking should be allowed in empire now you want them to nerf null sec into perfect safety too? I don't even have words for folks like you (that wouldn't get me perma-banned that is).
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#30 - 2013-04-23 20:32:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
They can log in, go AFK, and shut you down 24 hours a day, even when they are AFK.
…or, more accurately, they can log in, go AFK, and you choose to shut down 24 hours a day — something that the cloaker has no control over.

AFK cloakers are 100% harmless, and as long as local works the way it does, they must remain in the game as the only tool to disrupt local's intel potential.


I'm not trying to play devils advocate or anyhing (I agree, cloaky camping is not any kind of problem), I simply think this is a bad argument. We all know that a cloaky camper can't do anything individually while cloaked, but the danger is he can decloak, point you and call in/cyno in friends to kill you and most people in null won't come to help becuase they don't want to pit pve ships against pvp ships.

Saying theire is no potential for danger is misleading. A better argument to make is that it doesn't matter what they do if you are orgnaized or willing to move and thus deny them any pleasure or success.

Cloaky campers are only an issue for people who get anchored to some upgraded system. This is why renters should do some homework and not aggree to rent from someone who doesn't allow them access to unclaimed/unused systems for ratting/mining.
MrDiao
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#31 - 2013-04-23 20:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: MrDiao
Tippia wrote:
You're talking about the “remove AFKers” side, presumably, since they're trying to manipulate AFK to mean someone who's actually at the keyboard and out to get them…

Of course not. You can mine without being at the keyboard. Compare this to AFK cloaking, which means the character is not doing anything other than maybe moving in a straight line.


FYI I would have to admit that keep drawing people's attention to a flawed topic that "Whether AFK kills" is a pretty good strategy to save the cloaking tactic from sharper arguments.

When the AFK cloaking haters spending hours of time and energy to argue about "AFK kills or not"(which ccp doesn't care, they know the game), the haters will omit the real pros/cons behind the afk cloaking, which are what actually CCP may interested to have a look.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-04-23 20:42:26 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
On the con side, you have me.


Opening statement:
Good game design is based on the rock-paper-scissors paradigm. That is, for every offense, there is an effective defense, and for every defense, an offense.


This is a good point and i dont know why perma cloaking and being unscanable is always an exception...Maybe CCP can answer this for me. I am clueless. I for one would love to hunt me down some cloakies and make them work to remain cloaked!
Dave Stark
#33 - 2013-04-23 20:43:08 UTC
just throwing it out there.

the cost of finding out if he's afk by baiting them in a retriever.
40m.

the cost of docking up like a pilot with no balls?
over 30m/hour.

so even if he ganks you, as long as it takes him longer than 75 mins to get back to his keyboard, you still win.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#34 - 2013-04-23 20:51:03 UTC
As there are several thread in GD discussing (or having discussed) the same topic, this thread gets a lock.

The forum rules state:

16. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.

As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
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