Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Just remember we're talking about CCP here.

Burn Jita II is not about profit. It is about messing with high sec pilots who just don't pay attention. This event was broadcast just about everywhere. You'd have to practically be living in a hole, or high sec, not to know it was coming.

And yes, with big enough fleets freighters are getting ganked in 1.0 systems. That includes Perimeter, Ikuchi and New Caldari. Go to eve-kill.net and look at those systems. Or go to dotlan. For example, ships killed in New Caldari have reached over 125 in an hour.

Doesn't even take 1billion worth of Ships to take down a Freighter, cost effective wise you can easily suicide gank a Freighter with 5-6 Tornados pure damage fit. Building them internally you can actually bring those ship costs to ~450mil in total, with the Freighter itself costing ~1.1bil if you internally build it.

That aside though, I do agree.
In-fact all of the Industrial Ships frankly even when well Tanked (instead of focused on Cargo Space) are still incredibly Squishy on the whole, which considering the Crime Rate you would've thought this would've been addressed.

I mean look at it like this, you want to escort a Freighter through Low-Sec (for example) well if there is any trouble at all there is NO way to actually keep the damn thing alive even with standard Logistics; the incoming damage is too great without an entire fleet of Logistics; which often meaning risking 2-3x the cost of the Freighter itself just to keep it alive.

We also have an added issue that there is no Mid-Range Industrial Transports.
You go from
Tech 1 • 3,500 >> 20,000 m3 (2-4million)
Tech 2 • 4,500 >> 20 - 50,000 m3 (90-150million)
Freighter • 800-980,000 m3 (1.2billion)
Jump Freighter • 300-350,000 m3 + Jump Drive (6-7billion)

Seriously that is just a ridiculous jump in not only cargo size but also cost.
I mean if you compare this to real like, it is basically like saying "Ok you're choices are a Pick-up Truck / Van or an Oil Tanker"

Frankly this to me has just felt like a stupid decision even since RMR, and wondered why this hasn't been addressed.
This said there is also the fact that Industrial Transports are frankly damn near impossible to keep alive without being the biggest carebear about how you use them.

It leads to people ganking them in High-Sec because you NEVER see them in Low or Null-Sec.
Even if you do, usually it is a Jump Freighter that will Jump Station-to-Station; almost impossible to interdict. This isn't to say there isn't the odd stupid pilot that gives someone an easy kill with them, but seriously it is broken when these things are basically unicorns outside of High-Sec and always reside in NPC Corporations to prevent War-Decs.

Honestly I don't blame these pilots either, because frankly while they look decent on-paper; realistically they are paper thin.

To me there should be different Classes of these Ships.

Frigate-Class • up to 25,000 m3
Cruiser-Class • up to 50,000 m3
Battleship-Class • up to 100,000 m3
Capital-Class • up to 250,000 m3 (Replaces Current Tech 1 Freighters)
Super Class • up to 950,000 m3 (Basically the Current Tech 1 Freighters, but only has 1 Low Slot)

While the Frigate, Cruiser and Battleship Class Industrial Ships should have Tech 2 Variants in-line with the current ones (which right now to me would work best as the Cruiser Baseline Models) ... e.g.

Blockade Runner • Double Capacity, Quarter Agility, +2 Natural Warp Core Stabilisation
Deep Space • Half Capacity, Double Agility, Covert Cloaking Capable

For the Capital / Super Classes, instead they should work with a "Specialisation" Sub-System.
I'm not talking making them Tech 3, think Tech 1.5 ... as they would have a single sub-system.

Jump Drive Sub-System • Half Capacity, Jump Drive Capable (+1 High Slot)
Deep Space Sub-System • Quarter Capacity, Half Effective Hit Points, Covert Cloaking Device Capable (does not add +1 High, so Cloak bonus doesn't affect Super Class)
Convoy Sub-System • Half Capacity, +4% Per Level Resists
Ship Transport Sub-System • Cargo Bay Converted to Ship Maintenance Hanger (allows Packages & Unpackaged Ships, Refitting and Repairs (Repairs use Nanite Paste to Perform))
Hazardous Material Sub-System • Cargo Bay Converted to a Material Hanger (Hanger treated like a POS Silo)
Mobile Warehouse Sub-System • Cargo Bay Converted to a Corporation Hanger
Sovereignty Sub-System • Doubles Cargo Capacity, Adds Hanger, Jump Drive Capable, Disables Ability to Use Stargates

Keep in mind these are purely for Transportation, not to replace ships like the Orca or Rorqual which also need smaller classes imo; along with a Logistic Noctis that works like the Osprey / Augour only has Hull Repair Bonus'.

To me on the whole that would not only all help to flesh out the Industrial Logistics side of EVE, really what stops people using these outside of Neutral alts is because they are squishy, expensive and well come with a very heft Risk Vs. Reward without any real means to 'defend' yourself even with friends.

Although what I put above are basically generic (rather than deeply thought out) figures, it would give a basic idea for how things could be done to really encourage more variety and far more possible Risk.
I mean if for example someone was using Super-Class with a Damage Control and the Convoy Sub-System, It would become viable to protect them travelling normally through Low-Sec; not saying it would be any less stupid to, but a good group of players could realistically keep it safe against would-be pirates.

Ofc no doubt someone like PL would just constantly hot-drop them with 40-odd Supers 23-7 "for the lolz" but Supers in Low-Sec are a whole other issue that needs to be seriously addressed imo. Against a normal pirate T3 / Blops group, it'd be possible to get a fight with the Freighter surviving.

Especially if Cynosural Beacons were changed to have to be > 50km from Stations.

When freighters were introduced insurance applied to all ships that died... regardless if they were killed by CONCORD or not. It actually costed LESS to gank a freighter back then because insurance would cover most of the ganker's costs (which were battleships back then).

Tier 3 battlecruisers may cost less than a battleship... but with insurance not paying out for ganks that increases the base cost as all losses are guaranteed for gankers.

And despite these changes, ganking of freighters has more or less held constant, neither rising nor falling too much (outside of events like Burn Jita).


Not completely true.
If ganking for profit, gankers usually bring just enough firepower to kill the freighter (to lower the operating cost). With a proper logi ship shield reps (which apply instantly) can nullify about 1000 to 2000 damage in the space of 5 seconds (reps cycle that fast)... which is sometimes just enough to keep the big hulking ship alive.

If ganking for giggles and bringing overwhelming force (as was done in Burn Jita 2) then there are few things that can save you... regardless of how tanky your ship is. And fitting mods won't help.


Why says the booster needs to be off grid? It can sit right next to the freighter the whole way over (or boost at the gate it's aligning from at the very least).

Yes... this requires effort.


Not completely true.
A good web gets freighter moving in about 5 seconds or less. And if it warps to zero (as it should) then it will be able to jump instantly. Rinse and repeat.
Believe it or not, gankers actually need to get in an optimal position to apply their full damage... lest they risk failing and losing their ships with nothing to show for it.


It's the same way combat pilot operate. If they don't want to be primaried from the outset of battle they don't fly ships that are especially "shiny" or threatening relative to their peers. Why should freighters be any less different?

yeah nobody would complain if the whole gooncrap would be blue to them ,who else does these non profitable ganks anyway?

except as far as i know, red frog isn't blue to goons. so your argument kind of falls apart at the start.

does it matter who does and doesn't do them? an intrinsic part of eve is the fact that you're free to engage any one whenever you want.
if you want to waste any volume of isk you see fit to attempt to blow up a freighter, why should you be stopped from doing that?

the only people complaining are people who for some reason think they should be immune from the actions of other players, in a multiplayer game.

Instead of asking for the ur-freighter, the alpha and omega of freighters, that which lines its walls with isk to reduce damage and blots out the sun, ask for multiple sizes of freighter. It would be better to have more choices in cost/cargo capacity than to try to balance one single ship against the rest of EVE.

You have a great array of choices up through Iteron V cargo capacity (up to 42k m3, costs pennies to 150m depending on whether you go for a vanilla hauler or a T2 hauler). Then you can either detour from the hauler skill tree to the Orca (140k general + 50k ore + 400k SMA, 670m) or just make a giant leap in cargo capacity straight to the freighter (981k m3, 1.4b). There's plenty of room for more haulers in the hauler skill tree regardless of whether or not you consider the Orca.

Forgive me if I missed this and it did happen, but no other hauler had an HP buff when the tier 3 battlecruisers were introduced and/or when the cost of everything skyrocketed. If the freighter had a heyday of being invincible in hisec, then it's a good thing that it has come down from those lofty heights.

Not only that, but it was also only two of the four JFs that were going through at the same time the second time they went through Jita (went in, out, then got bumped on return). If you lose a JF in highsec you're doing something seriously wrong.

This bears repeating...

What Shah Fluffers is saying, is that suicide ganking got hit with the nerf bat. But it still happens. People are just more judicious in which freighters they try and gank now.

And speaking of webbing and boosting...I haven't looked (at work) could a loki be fit to web and boost?

Added via edit:

Also, with the nerf to ganking I bet many freighter pilots thought, "Oh great, now I can put even more in my freighter with the nerf," which effectively put them back up into the feasibility range of getting ganked. If it takes 10 tier 3 BCs to gank a freighter (yeah, yeah you EFT warriors say 5-6, but that is cutting it damn close) take the cost of a tier 3 BC multiply it by 10, now multiply it by say 1.5. That is your upper limit on the value of your cargo. For simplicity sake, if 10 tier 3 BCs cost 1 billion, don't carry more than 1.5 billion. Drop it to 1 billion and you should be (relatively) safe.

And for pity's sake once in a while look at themittani.com, the forums, or even Eve News 24 and see if Goons are planning a Burn Jita event. If so, stfo of Jita for that event.

Those ganking freighters also got insurance pay outs, so I'm far from convinced by this argument. With insurance payouts it was even possible to make isk even if you failed.