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Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?

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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#361 - 2011-11-01 18:36:31 UTC
This is a role playing game. The role I am playing is that of a space-douche.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#362 - 2011-11-01 18:37:17 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
As for your example Holmes, that is like saying many of the stories you read on C&P lead you to the conclusion that most of the ppl on their are asshats. This may be true, but you can't prove it. Are they posting to elicit a response from their victims to gain tactical advantage (no moral qualms)? Or are the sitting their beating it while ppl post threads about how sad they are that they lost everything they had? You CAN NOT tell the difference within the context of the game.


To be fair, you don't really have to prove they're asshats when these idiots themselves are proving it for you. They're waving their dicks around like they just won the special olympics every time they make someone quit or go off on them. They're proud of their accomplishments and waste no time bragging and orgasming about it. That's very poor sportsmanship, in my opinion.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#363 - 2011-11-01 18:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Planck
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Karl Planck wrote:
As for your example Holmes, that is like saying many of the stories you read on C&P lead you to the conclusion that most of the ppl on their are asshats. This may be true, but you can't prove it. Are they posting to elicit a response from their victims to gain tactical advantage (no moral qualms)? Or are the sitting their beating it while ppl post threads about how sad they are that they lost everything they had? You CAN NOT tell the difference within the context of the game.


To be fair, you don't really have to prove they're asshats when these idiots themselves are proving it for you. They're waving their dicks around like they just won the special olympics every time they make someone quit or go off on them. They're proud of their accomplishments and waste no time bragging and orgasming about it. That's very poor sportsmanship, in my opinion.


As ranger said, they lack class. This is an optional way to play and not having class has its own rewards and consequences. however, it has nothing to do with morals.

*edit: let me rephrase that, it may have something to do with morals, but you cannot deduce that from in game actions. This makes speculation for reasons other than entertainment pointless.

I has all the eve inactivity
Twisted Alice
Doomheim
#364 - 2011-11-01 18:46:32 UTC
Michael Holmes Holmes wrote:

If I decide that I want to gank a miner, I would go and find a miner and gank him, I would even possibly offer a ransom or something but I would do it in game terms, I would make it seem like something that would exist in the game setting.

What I would not do is tell them that I love listening to them complain and that it makes me want to do it more, I would not go on the forums and act like I am some sort of anarchist messiah who "gets EVE", I would not go out of my way to make other players think I want them to not have fun anymore.

I will say it again, I do not care about illicit actions in EVE, I do care when players take it too far and go out of their way to hurt other players or just make them want to quit.




Yeah, it should not get personal.


But you Michael don't strike me as someone that uses general forums that often (might be wrong) if you did you should know what they're like and be pretty resistant to anything unpleasant that's said in them. Don't take the arguments in forums too seriously, a lot of it is just hot air.
Rod Blaine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2011-11-01 18:47:55 UTC
Still no answer, why don't you leave it at the door?

could it be that simple? free will alone?
Artemis Dagon
Perkone
Caldari State
#366 - 2011-11-01 19:01:28 UTC
Personally I think the lines are drawn fairly well in this game. Yes, this is a combat focused game, we all know this. If your aim is to kill someone in a war, retribution, for ISK, their cargo, or mods, I can respect that, it's part of the game, and you're looking to further yourself in some way. If you are just going out of your way to grief, taunt, and other annoying behavior to that lone miner in a cruiser trying to afford something better before podding him, you're a d-bag. Really it's not localized to games or gaming in general. Anonymity in general brings out the worst in people (cough Xbox live).

I am however getting a kick out of some of these replies I've been reading.

I'm sure most love to wash their hands of "it's just a game" or some other non-argument. In EVE, you die, you lose your ship, cargo, mods, time, and money repurchasing. That's annoying as it is, considering ISK directly translates to time and money in this game. You are paying for something you enjoy, having others come along to intentionally make you not enjoy it, is low. Especially if you try to make it personal.

To the person who said all his friends and mom laughed about him scamming and lying to people online, shows what kind of mother that is (and the son she raised), and the friends he hangs around.

To the guy who said he'd go out and pillage among over things if there were no laws or consequences IRL. Can'ttellifsrs. If so that's pretty shameful. If you need the threat of laws and consequences to be a good person, you're doing life wrong. Seek help.

The way you play is a reflection on a part of who you are, good or bad. Characters are nothing without controllers to give them life. Stop being such pansies in denial and just admit it, even if you're immoral, it's not a big deal. You aren't the first who isn't.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#367 - 2011-11-01 19:04:44 UTC
It just came to me a revelation!

The OP is right!

When I saw The Door, I left morality behind.

Does this make me a bad man?

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#368 - 2011-11-01 19:12:34 UTC
Michael Holmes Holmes wrote:
I think we have a problem with communicating the points here.

Nobody is confusing EVE with real life.

What some of us are saying is that when you go out of your way as a player to make someone else not want to play the game, that is pretty wrong on a moral level and makes you a pretty bad person in real life.

This is not about destroying ships or stealing from a corp, this is about behavior we see less in game and more out of game and on the forums, you act like a bunch of bullies who can't be troubled with the idea that other people play this game to have fun.

Fun that does not involve you.

When you tell us that you really are a good person and yet you talk about collecting tears like a a bully who enjoys to hear the protests of his victims, yeah you have some issues you need to work out.


I pvp for the challenge. If some of you chimps in Imp Legion get Butthurt about losing then, yeah that’s funny. Funny in the way that you watch someone fall down except in this case you know that the person you are laughing at is just behaving like a spoiled child.

I don’t pvp for that reason though – but if you guys in IMP Legion get all emoraging about losing (again) then yes, it’s is icing on the cake. So thanks for that.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#369 - 2011-11-01 19:18:01 UTC
No matter how you put it, if someone tells me how they like to grief and scam in game and relishes in the response, I could not force myself to trust someone like that.

It's not like poker, where everybody antes up in a central pot and bluffing about your hand is the name of the game.


You know what truly does entertain me is how people try to justify themselves. They are like that head bad guy from "V For Vendetta" when, in the end, they are begging for their lives.

Look, if you grief, scam, and gank, don't try to justify it with "it's a game" or the usual old platitudes. Sometimes I wonder if that's part of the game for some people, like living the lie is an extra bonus over getting away with it.

As for people who say they will pillage and gank IRL, I only wish they would. Then we can tell them apart from those who don't, and there won't be any clones.

Leading me to the last part regarding "uber l33tness" of PVPers - if you are so hard core, then petition for a no-clone server.

Heck I would love to see a "live fast die young" option where you get supercharged SP learning rates but no clone (as if your huge brain is too advanced), to be decided on character creation and unchangeable. If you can romp through lowsec with a char like that and show a long history then I will let you take my sister home.

Otherwise you are just playing a space game like the rest of us and all else is fluff - fluff that is gone once the computer is off.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Rod Blaine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2011-11-01 19:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rod Blaine
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Otherwise you are just playing a space game like the rest of us and all else is fluff - fluff that is gone once the computer is off.



ofc, as goed for all those invested in bearing it up in empire. Difference being the perception of what is fun. Nothing inherently wrong about being a sad ass bastard in a game. I've met guys in RL that i know from this game, and believe me, griefer ingame ~!= bastard oog. It's just about how serieous you take your ****. And if you ask me, life's biggest losers are those that need to take everything too damn serious, and end up being too tightassed to enjoy it.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#371 - 2011-11-01 19:26:14 UTC
this thread has began to quickly unravel with people popping in to give their 2 isk on the subject.

Oh well, was good while it lasted.

I has all the eve inactivity
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#372 - 2011-11-01 19:28:32 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
No matter how you put it, if someone tells me how they like to grief and scam in game and relishes in the response, I could not force myself to trust someone like that.


How about if I tell you that I don't "grief and scam", but I very much enjoy playing a game where the level of freedom is such that it's possible?

For me, having real people play the villains, along with the freedom to play a villain myself should I so wish, adds a depth to this game that makes it far more 'real' to me. That's why I defend that freedom so passionately. If nothing else, if we have no choice to be bad, then the choice to be good is meaningless.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#373 - 2011-11-01 19:30:22 UTC
Artemis Dagon wrote:

To the guy who said he'd go out and pillage among over things if there were no laws or consequences IRL. Can'ttellifsrs.


Roll


"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kelsi Corynn
Doomheim
#374 - 2011-11-01 19:36:34 UTC
For further reading check out:

Identity formation
Morality
Simulation
Game
Zethika
Hell's Kitchen Space Edition
#375 - 2011-11-01 19:43:52 UTC
I don't think it's inherently immoral to blow up someone else's ship, consent or not.

This is a game of power, money and most definitely back stabbing. I don't find it immoral when a spy blows up my turret, teleporter and dispenser in tf2, that's real time invested there, lost forever to further his cause!
Of course the timescale doesn't follow, yet I think of it just the same, it's how the game is.

EvE IS meant to be a place where people get ganged up and murdered, your claim that this isn't a valid argument is bonkers, frankly. It's not like this have been somehow hidden from you, you knew exactly what you signed up for, had you watched the trailers or even read a slimmer of these very forums.

That said, we come to what this thread has somewhat derailed into, the socail interaction that follows.
Again I think the word immoral is ill-suited for what is going here.

Some people act like d-bags behind the veil of anonymity, that is the basal effect of the internet.
Frankly, if you feel the need to gloat, demean or something similiar just because you won some utterly onesided fight, it says loads about your character or at the very least, the state your mind is in.
Heck it's the same in the few truly even fights or an upscale fight!

I think this is a much better gauge of their personality than them blowing up my helpless mining ship.
Yet I still wouldn't call it immoral, it's just low, the act of a person I would have nothing to do with.

There is no reason why both parties couldn't have fun with blowing eachother up.
The problem is that there are some people who think this in any way shape or form is a singleplayer game. As there is those who feel the need to be d-bags after a fight and revel in the fury of their counterpart.
Both are silly types of persons but none are immoral.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#376 - 2011-11-01 19:49:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Vyr
Karl Planck wrote:

While the fact that the person is immoral may or may not be true, their actions in game cannot be used to make any determination about their moral character IRL.



That right there is so much bull. That's a fine rationalization to justify any action in game. You don't think that folks who taunt you to collect your "tears" have a few issues outside the game? That's just foolish.

edit-spelling
SilentSkills
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2011-11-01 19:50:25 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
This is a role playing game. The role I am playing is that of a space-douche.


you smell funny bruh
Cyprus Black
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#378 - 2011-11-01 19:55:34 UTC
I do it in eve because it's considered a bannable offense in all other MMO's. Plus it closer mimics real life behavior. Players are civil in other MMO's because they're forced to be through the heavy hands of the GM's. That's not how the real world works. In the real world we're civil to each other because it benefits us to do so.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#379 - 2011-11-01 20:00:01 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Karl Planck wrote:
As for your example Holmes, that is like saying many of the stories you read on C&P lead you to the conclusion that most of the ppl on their are asshats. This may be true, but you can't prove it. Are they posting to elicit a response from their victims to gain tactical advantage (no moral qualms)? Or are the sitting their beating it while ppl post threads about how sad they are that they lost everything they had? You CAN NOT tell the difference within the context of the game.


To be fair, you don't really have to prove they're asshats when these idiots themselves are proving it for you. They're waving their dicks around like they just won the special olympics every time they make someone quit or go off on them. They're proud of their accomplishments and waste no time bragging and orgasming about it. That's very poor sportsmanship, in my opinion.


As ranger said, they lack class. This is an optional way to play and not having class has its own rewards and consequences. however, it has nothing to do with morals.

*edit: let me rephrase that, it may have something to do with morals, but you cannot deduce that from in game actions. This makes speculation for reasons other than entertainment pointless.


And I am not saying they're criminals. And you are absolutely right in that in a game like Eve it is their prerogative to be a douche. But they need to stop kidding themselves in thinking that just because they're using a video game to project malicious intentions anonymously it shields them from real life intentions.

I'll repeat it again: If you enjoy making players miserable in-game then this enjoyment is REAL, not in-game or make-believe. If you enjoy causing misery and pain to people (ie collect tears), regardless of the tool you use to proyect your intentions (ie a video game) then you are a sadist. You can claim that your feelings are in-game all you want. But fact is that your enjoyment in causing pain is real (not pretend).

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#380 - 2011-11-01 20:02:28 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
Karl Planck wrote:

While the fact that the person is immoral may or may not be true, their actions in game cannot be used to make any determination about their moral character IRL.



That right there is so much bull. That's a fine rationalization to justify any action in game. You don't think that folks who taunt you to collect your "tears" have a few issues outside the game? That's just foolish.

edit-spelling


awww, and the sweet smell of GD is back in full swing.

Read that bit carefully ana. You says people who taunt to collect your tears. Yes they taunt, no you don't know why. You can even get a good guess as to why they do it.

But there is no way to actually determine what their motives are because it is in the context of the game.

And all of this is getting a bit out of context. How does being a jerk mean your immoral. You may not have class, but that has nothing to do with morals.

I has all the eve inactivity