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Crime & Punishment

 
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Null vs low security status gains
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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1 - 2013-04-22 22:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Can someone please explain the logic behind null sec ratting giving you larger security status increases than lowsec ratting? Note that I am not talking about the bounty amounts, just the sec status gain.

1. Ratting is REALLY boring. This is supposed to be a game.

2. The gains in lowsec are absurdly low compared to the losses when you aggress.

3. Lowsec is supposed to be risky and a PvP playground. Why penalise these activities so hard?

4. Concord is absent from null sec but present (to some extent) in lowsec. Wouldn't they care more about (and therefore better reward) lowsec security than nullsec security?

5. Null PvP doesn't result in sec status loss in most areas so the increased gain is meaningless.

For those that need highsec access the solution is to just rat in null but the problem still remains and it is annoying.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
xPredat0rz
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#2 - 2013-04-22 22:56:08 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Can someone please explain the logic behind null sec ratting giving you larger security status increases than lowsec ratting? Note that I am not talking about the bounty amounts, just the sec status gain.

1. Ratting is REALLY boring. This is supposed to be a game.

2. The gains in lowsec are absurdly low compared to the losses when you aggress.

3. Lowsec is supposed to be risky and a PvP playground. Why penalise these activities so hard?

4. Concord is absent from null sec but present (to some extent) in lowsec. Wouldn't they care more about (and therefore better reward) lowsec security than nullsec security?

5. Null PvP doesn't result in sec status loss in most areas so the increased gain is meaningless.

For those that need highsec access the solution is to just rat in null but the problem still remains and it is annoying.



1. It is also not the only way to make isk. The reason behind null sec being easier to regain sec status is greater availiblity to Battleship Rats. Plenty of guides explain why.

2. Not really. Low sec exploration can make a fair amount of isk. You also have missions in low sec that make decent isk/hour and lp/hour. NPC Null has pirate missions that make insane amounts of isk. Sov 0.0 has upgrades to make their space better. Without those the isk making blows.

3. Low sec is risky. SO is null sec. Whiel it is broken to a point you want to do crime you can be punished for it. The new crimewatch system is a blessing compared to the old go GCC kill bitches now go hide in a safe spot and wait out timers or get shot at every jump by gate guns.

4. No because you are being "protected still"

5. Correct . But you can be engaged upon by anyone freely. So concord rewards you better for being there. Would you give the bigger bonus to the solider fighting deep in an enemy country without support or the guy that on goes outside the wire once in a while and makes coffee the rest of the time?
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3 - 2013-04-22 23:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
xPredat0rz wrote:

1. It is also not the only way to make isk. The reason behind null sec being easier to regain sec status is greater availiblity to Battleship Rats. Plenty of guides explain why.

2. Not really. Low sec exploration can make a fair amount of isk. You also have missions in low sec that make decent isk/hour and lp/hour. NPC Null has pirate missions that make insane amounts of isk. Sov 0.0 has upgrades to make their space better. Without those the isk making blows.

3. Low sec is risky. SO is null sec. Whiel it is broken to a point you want to do crime you can be punished for it. The new crimewatch system is a blessing compared to the old go GCC kill bitches now go hide in a safe spot and wait out timers or get shot at every jump by gate guns.

4. No because you are being "protected still"

5. Correct . But you can be engaged upon by anyone freely. So concord rewards you better for being there. Would you give the bigger bonus to the solider fighting deep in an enemy country without support or the guy that on goes outside the wire once in a while and makes coffee the rest of the time?


I specifically said I was not talking about bounty payouts in the OP so ISK/hour is not part of my question. I have no problem with null sec earning more ISK. It is logical and proper.

Regarding #5, sov null space isn't Concord's problem. That's why it is "sovereign" rather than NPC-controlled. I don't actually understand why there are bounties at all in null sec. (Don't read that to mean I think they should be removed since it would badly break null sec.)

I want lowsec to be an easier PvP learning ground for people rather than 'all or nothing'. I have come across lots of people who are cautious about lowsec PvP because the sec status loss is so hard to grind back - not good.

I sometimes think that CCP correlates the number of clicks with success and it irritates me. I have zero interest in grinding for either ISK or sec status and don't understand why there isn't a better (or at least less tedious) mechanism for this.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
penifSMASH
ElitistOps
Deepwater Hooligans
#4 - 2013-04-22 23:54:32 UTC
"Oh no there are bubbles. This is too hard. Let me go back to ganking newbies in haulers" -- every low-sec idiot ever, 2013
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#5 - 2013-04-23 00:12:44 UTC
penifSMASH wrote:
"Oh no there are bubbles. This is too hard. Let me go back to ganking newbies in haulers" -- every low-sec idiot ever, 2013


Is there something wrong with my OP? Maybe the text isn't appearing or something. Here, I'll make it easy for those who are challenged by more than one sentence at a time:

Zappity wrote:
For those that need highsec access the solution is to just rat in null but the problem still remains and it is annoying.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Cenis Pheese
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-04-23 11:29:19 UTC
Zappity wrote:


Whine



Not sure if trolling. I think probably yes.

The problem with your OP is that you wrote it. Find someone else to write it and stay off the internet. I can recommend some creams. Are you allergic to latex?
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#7 - 2013-04-23 13:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ynot Eyob
Its the true sec and sizer of ship counting your security.

a 0.1 system gives you nearly as much as a -0.1 system, the different aint that big, same with a 0.4 system and a 0.5 system.

So it really doesnt have that much to do which area you are in, Empire, Low or null, but the true sec.

Fast Talk lvl 5 and a 0.1 system, can get you security up rather fast, but ofcause not as fast as a -1.0 in null.

As fare as i know the biggest ship killed in a system every 15min Counts. The chance to find a Throne battleship in null are bigger than low sec. The lower True Sec the bigger rats, the better security.

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Litair
Nleesh
#8 - 2013-04-23 13:34:58 UTC
As much as I'd like to sound cool and rugged like everyone else, the OP's logic is sound. The people losing security status are not the ones living in null sec, so it would seem strange they are the ones who can get it back the easiest.. from a gameplay perspective at least.

I would also say that it takes way too long in general to grind security status back up. I'm sure all the very manly men here will agree that PvP is the most fun part of the game, so it's weird to attach such a major time sink to it, as if grinding enough ISK for the ships and modules wasn't bad enough.

Make it so you can bribe Concord with all the fancy loot you got from funny pvp times :p no need to waste your time pve'ing then if it's not your thing!
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#9 - 2013-04-23 14:11:33 UTC
Litair wrote:
As much as I'd like to sound cool and rugged like everyone else, the OP's logic is sound.


The OP said that the consequences of doing bad things in high sec are high, and that the rate of repair is too low. Any change to adjust this will adjust the power of the consequences. Make it easier to rat up your sec status in general, and more people will create alts for ganking or use their mains for it, thus creating an "imbalance" in the ganking/freighting/mining aspect of life.

So while readjusting the rate at which sec status is recovered seems like an obvious move to make life simple, it in fact creates havoc with the balance of play.

Plus, you wouldn't want to throw gankers a bone would you? That wouldn't be in the spirit of things. Blink

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-04-23 14:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
I think the problem resides in the fact that in null, you do not incur sec status penalties yet null gives the best sec standing benefits. Which it shouldn't. Sov null doesn't care, and NPC null is "pirate" faction. It's an anomaly that shouldn't exist.

The problem with lowsec, is the wanton "need" to pod people. If you do not pod and only agress, the sec standings hits are quite minimal. Podding is where the major hit comes from. And in lowsec, to encourage fights, do not pod. That's a biggy there. Let the target reship, let the target get friends, and enjoy the longer fights. Or rather, more rounds of fighting.

Simply podding that toon back to highsec doesn't encourage that person to come back through that low/highsec border gate camp.

As it is, ratting sec status back up from simple agressing is very fast and easy. Grinding up through some pod kills is not.

Lesson of the day, don't pod in low.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Litair
Nleesh
#11 - 2013-04-23 14:44:34 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Litair wrote:
As much as I'd like to sound cool and rugged like everyone else, the OP's logic is sound.


The OP said that the consequences of doing bad things in high sec are high, and that the rate of repair is too low. Any change to adjust this will adjust the power of the consequences. Make it easier to rat up your sec status in general, and more people will create alts for ganking or use their mains for it, thus creating an "imbalance" in the ganking/freighting/mining aspect of life.

So while readjusting the rate at which sec status is recovered seems like an obvious move to make life simple, it in fact creates havoc with the balance of play.

Plus, you wouldn't want to throw gankers a bone would you? That wouldn't be in the spirit of things. Blink


I do believe she was mostly speaking of doing bad things in low sec :p You get blown up by Concord if you do bad things in high sec as it is.. so it's more a matter of making it more attractive to fight in low sec I think. If more people go there then people wouldn't have to suicide gank in high sec to fill their killboards.
That's my naïve thought at least.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#12 - 2013-04-23 21:22:04 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Litair wrote:
As much as I'd like to sound cool and rugged like everyone else, the OP's logic is sound.


The OP said that the consequences of doing bad things in high sec are high, and that the rate of repair is too low. Any change to adjust this will adjust the power of the consequences. Make it easier to rat up your sec status in general, and more people will create alts for ganking or use their mains for it, thus creating an "imbalance" in the ganking/freighting/mining aspect of life.

So while readjusting the rate at which sec status is recovered seems like an obvious move to make life simple, it in fact creates havoc with the balance of play.

Plus, you wouldn't want to throw gankers a bone would you? That wouldn't be in the spirit of things. Blink


Not sure about this argument. I have never ground sec status is low because it is too slow. I have always gone to null so I am not convinced there would be a balance problem. It is generally only a few extra jumps (if you don't find a wormhole) and the travel time is more than made up for in the reduced grind time.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#13 - 2013-04-23 21:28:04 UTC
Ynot Eyob wrote:
Its the true sec and sizer of ship counting your security.

a 0.1 system gives you nearly as much as a -0.1 system, the different aint that big, same with a 0.4 system and a 0.5 system.

So it really doesnt have that much to do which area you are in, Empire, Low or null, but the true sec.

Fast Talk lvl 5 and a 0.1 system, can get you security up rather fast, but ofcause not as fast as a -1.0 in null.

As fare as i know the biggest ship killed in a system every 15min Counts. The chance to find a Throne battleship in null are bigger than low sec. The lower True Sec the bigger rats, the better security.


Thanks. I should have been clearer in the OP. I understand the mechanics of sec status, I just don't understand the logic of why they mechanics are set up this way.

A game mechanic that bores you to tears as punishment for valid gameplay (i.e. lowsec PvP) is simply not a good game mechanic.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#14 - 2013-04-23 21:28:18 UTC
I noticed this on the Fanfest program: Thursday 25th, 16:00/09:00 Lowsec PvP/Crimewatch. I wonder what it is about.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#15 - 2013-04-24 00:02:07 UTC
Actually with a little prep, and knowledge of the mechanics, you can rat your sec status up in HS much faster than you can in lowsec or most of nullsec.

You just need to think past lowest-common-denominator to get the answer you need.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#16 - 2013-04-24 00:04:13 UTC
At any rate, the logic of the system is "you do the crime, you pay the time" -- the reason it's faster in 0.0 than in HS is due to the risk/reward balance.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Litair
Nleesh
#17 - 2013-04-24 01:40:39 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
At any rate, the logic of the system is "you do the crime, you pay the time" -- the reason it's faster in 0.0 than in HS is due to the risk/reward balance.


I think that's fairly obvious, but it's also fair to argue that the balance isn't necessarily right.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#18 - 2013-04-24 02:17:58 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Actually with a little prep, and knowledge of the mechanics, you can rat your sec status up in HS much faster than you can in lowsec or most of nullsec.

You just need to think past lowest-common-denominator to get the answer you need.


Are you referring to mining level 4 missions against pirate factions? Can't think of another reliable way now that CONCORD agents are no longer available.

Maybe CCP will introduce officer tags for sec status gain some time...

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.