Player Features and Ideas Discussion

hey dumby, the post i quoted was specifically talking about killing freighters for profit. please. read before you post. i only say it so you stop making yourself look like a complete dolt.

congratulations you linked a burn jita kill, what's your point? burn jita isn't done for profit, which is what i was discussing (not that you know that, because you flat out refuse to read what has been posted and insist on posting your own irrelevant drivel)

ummm. looking at the timestamp on the kill that is looking to be right around the time of burn jita 2. Perimeter is real close to jita. When jita gets gate locked due to high load, people who can't make it into jita jsut don't go damn....guess we'll go back home again. they set up shop in the outlying systems.

That KM is loaded with 0.0 associated entities. they trravelled far for the event, some I imagine ratted like champs to clean up some sec status. Basically....they came out to kill crap. If not in jita well perimeter close enough to kill time till jita could be entered.


That ship should not have been anywhere near jita at the time of the event the tl;dr.


I was toolng about in a damn rifter to see the event when lower population. It was not in an expensive clone jsut in case. the concord swarms were nice.

No amount of repping will save you against an alpha attack.

Fleeting with an off grid booster can increase your ehp, but OGB is getting nerfed.

A fleet mate can web you into faster warp, but a good gank fleet will still catch you.

Bounties do nothing to save a freighter, in fact putting bounties on the gankers will only make you a bigger target.

A merc corp can do nothing. What war dec the gankers corp? Many of these are ganker alts in NPC corps. Mercs can not help against that.

You can fly with your cargo only half full to keep your loot value low. And pray they have their eye on a more valuable target. But this is relying on luck more than skill.

It has been asked what will be added to the game to balance an increase to a freighters tank. Well lets see more powerful weapons that do more DPS. Say T2 weapons. Ships with better damage bonuses, New BC class ships that can fit large guns, Market inflation making cargo that was worth well under 1 billion isk a couple years ago, worth nearly 2 billion now.

But wait, we already have all these things, so what is my point? Well, All these things have been added to EVE since freighters came into the game. Yet freighters have received nothing to balance these changes. In this case it is the inactivity of CCP that has created the imbalance.

Freighter have been in EVE for several years now, and have not been touched since they were added, yet many other game changes have affected then making them effectively weaker. 3-4 years ago it would have been 100% impossible to gank a freighter with a fleet worth only half the value of the freighter hull. Freighters are worth between 1.5 and 1.9 billion isk currently. Yet they can be ganked with a fleet loss of only 650-800 million isk. Basically half the value of the freighter hull.

4 years ago freighters were only worth about 600 million isk. There was no way in hell even with insurance payouts on the battleship hulls that you could gank a freighter with a fleet worth less than the value of the freighter hull, let alone half that value. yet so many pro gankers insist nothing has changed. The truth is freighters have not changed, but every thing else has.

Lets consider a military comparison. In WW II they had APC's that would carry solders and supplies to the front lines. These vehicles were armor plated, when they were built most of the small arms they would encounter would simply bounce off, they had great defense and survivability. 10 years later weapons technology had grown to the point where even small arms could penetrate this once adequate armor. The APC itself had not changed but the weapons used against it had.

What is the solution to this problem? Would not the logical solution be to upgrade the armor on these APC's so they could survive against the new weapons they encountered. Simple logic, something any military in the world would do without question. Yet in EVE this idea is thought of as ludicrous, and laughed at as not needed. yes lets let the backbone of EVE industry be reduced in effectiveness with each change to combat ships we get, but never bother to address the imbalance it has created.

Simple facts;

-When freighter were introduced to the game putting a fleet together to gank them would cost more than the freighter hull was worth. No T2 guns, much weaker battleships, no T2 ships, No Battlecruisers, only battleship with much lower DPS than we have now.

- Currently a freighter can be ganked by a fleet worth less than halrf the value of its hull. We have battlecruisers that can use large weapons, we have T2 weapons that are much more powerful, Combat ships in general have gotten a significant increase in DPS since freighter were introduced. Yet freighters have remained the same.

These are not my opinions these are facts. Facts that have been proven repeatedly. Freighters need a balance pass, and I am sure they will get it once the combat ships are done. They will still be gankable, but not by a fleet worth only half the value of the freighter hull.

If buffing the freighters tank is not anb option, Fine, then reduce the building requirements of the freighters to bring there value down to the 650-800 million isk value of the fleet needed to gank them. Freighters will be cheaper to replace, and there will be more targets out there for you gankers. A win win. Don't bother spouting any crap about market swings and mineral prices. These things will affect the ganker ships as much as they will affect freighters. The balance a freighter should have, is that it should take a fleet worth at least the value of the freighter hull to gank it. This can be done by either buffing the freighters tank, or reducing its build cost, or a combination of the two. Personally I believe reducing it build costs may be the way to go as it will not hurt the "emergent game play" of freighter ganking, but help the freighter pilots at the same time.

I am fine with a fleet of 8-10 Talos being able to gank my freighter, but either adjust the insurance rate so that it is actually 80% of the replacement costs, or make the ship cheaper to build/buy to balance the cost of ganking it with the cost of the gank fleet.

this is one of the silliest arguments going.

yes your cargo is worth more now than it was a year ago, as are the ganker's ships. that means they need to gank bigger targets to retain profitability.

in short; inflation has **** all to do with ganking.

FFS.... this thread again???

A.) If you want to kill a freighter, in the cheapest possible manner, YOU DON'T USE TORNADO's.

Freighter EHP 150-200k.
Tornado Volley 14k. Assume 2 Volleys, that's 6-8 tornados. Tornado Cost 80m. Gank Cost 480-680m isk... and that's lowballing it.
Cheap-fit Thrasher Volley 1500, Assume 3 Volleys, that's 35-45 thrashers. Thrasher Cost 3m. Gank cost, less than 150m.

It's even cheaper to use catalysts (cause they do more damage overall).

B.) I've done the statistics in this thread: If you fly smart, you are very, very unlikely to have your freighter ganked in highsec. Smart means:
a.) Don't carry more than 1b isk in cargo.
b.) Don't be on the goon's "target" list (these pilots get ganked no matter what they carry). See them to get off the list...
c.) If they are targetting double wrapped containers, don't carry double wrapped containers.
d.) Avoid Jita during events like "burn jita ii", etc...

Following these "simple" guidelines, it is VERY UNLIKELY you will ever have your freighter suicide ganked.

C.) A straight buff to freighter HP is simply unacceptable. I'll support fitting options for freighters... but you would have to make a choice at the fitting screen: Cargo Capacity vs EHP vs Agility/Speed. You don't get one without sacrificing the others!!!!

D.) Think outside the box: Don't simply say, "I want more EHP" for nothing. Ask for game-play options that allow smart players to be smarter. This could be decoy cargo, exploding cargo containers, and whatever else.

E.) Do a forum search before posting the same topic again, and again, and again...

Sorry can not agree here.You are one of the smarter posters here Dave. Stop and think for a minute. The gankers ships are worth half the cost of the freighters hull. 3 years ago a freighter gank fleet cost more than the cost of the freighter hull. If you adjust values for inflation, it currently cost about half as much to gank a freighter as it used to. Not more, less. It has gotten easier. Not harder, that is the problem.


I agree inflation is not the problem. You totally missed my point. If inflation was the only change a load that was safe to haul 3 years ago, would still be safe to haul today, even if it is now worth twice as much. Try reading my whole post.

Inflation is meaning less. That is the point I try to make. Cargo is worth double what is was 3 years ago for the exact same load. (inflation) the max cargo value you can haul without getting ganked has not changed in 3 years. (no inflation) Why has inflation doubled the cost of ships, but not the amount you can safely haul? The problem is obviously not inflation, but some thing else. The cost of ships and everything else has doubled, but the cost of ganking has stayed about the same. How? because ganking has gotten easier, and more cost effective, due to combat improvements in the game.

Gank ships costing more, is irrelevant, as the current gank ships did not even exist 3 years ago. Freighters have more than doubled in price in the last 3 years. You may argue that current teir 3 BC's are comparable in value, as the old battleships got an insurance pay out to off set the costs. (i know teirs are done, but what else do we call the new BC's with large guns) You talk of increased hull costs being just due to inflation. Yet freighters have been affected by far more than inflation. 3 years ago the rule of thumb was you could carry up to 1 billion isk worth of cargo safely in a freighter. Yet that number has not changed, even though inflation has doubled everything else. you can effectively only safely haul half of what you could 3 years ago, as the exact same load is now worth twice as much.

An example. A full freighter load 3 years ago worth approximately 1 billion isk was fairly safe. You could even auto pilot it without fear of being ganked. Back then a Gank fleet to take down a freighter cost more than the freighter hull was worth, even after considering the pay back from insurance for the lost battleships. there was balance as the cost of the freighter hull was about equal to the cost of the gank fleet.

If you hauled the exact same load in a freighter today(same items not same value) it would be worth twice as much. The freighter hull is worth twice as much. Standard inflation at work. But if it was only inflation you should still be able to haul that same load safely. Cargo value doubled, Hull costs doubled, Amount that could be safely hauled should have doubled. If inflation was the only change, the cost of the gank fleet should have also doubled along with the freighter hull cost. If the gank fleet then cost about the same as the cost of the freighter hull, than it should still be about the cost of the freighter hull. But this is not the case. Why?

A freighter can now be ganked for about half the cost of its hull. Inflation of the cost of the gank ships should have kept this from happening. Inflation should have kept it balanced? But it did not. The reason is there have been changes to the combat mechanics of the game. these changes have made ganking freighters easier. Easier to the point where the gank fleet cost is only half the value of the freighter hull, where it used to be about even. If three years ago you could gank a freighter for half the cost of its hull, there would have been as much complaining about it then as there is now. Inflation is not the problem. balance is.

My point is regardless of inflation, 3 years ago there was not a chance in hell you could gank a freighter with a fleet loss that cost less than the freighter hull. Now you can gank a freighter with a fleet loss equal to about half the cost of a freighter hull. That is a major difference. A very significant change.

My Charon cost 1.9 billion isk. It can easily be ganked by a fleet of 8 talos that would only cost 650-800M. Half the cost of the freighter hull. 3 years ago I payed about 650 million isk for my first Charon, but it would have cost 650-800 million isk to gank it. The value of my cargo has doubled, the value of my hull has doubled, but the value of the gank fleet is about the same. Why has it not doubled. It would have, had combat ships not been buffed so heavily in the last couple years.

3 years of minor buffs and improvements to combat ships, has resulted in a major buff to combat ships overall, while their industrial victims have stayed the same. Until oct of last year that is. Mining ships have been updated. Now it is time to update the rest of the industrial ships.

This is not inflation, It is combat ships getting better while freighters and industrial's are left unchanged. the ratio's are way out of balance.

Just give them some low / mid slots to play with.

I've heard this argument before when talking about adding a low to Freighters, but I haven't found a person that can explain why carrying a capital in a freighter would be bad for the game.

so many words, so i'll address the points i see an obvious reply to.

pretty sure, 3 years ago (correct me if i'm wrong because i wasn't playing 3 years ago) gankers got insurance for ganking. that means ganking has got harder. so if you work it out, i doubt it does cost less now. individual ship hulls may be cheaper, but due to the insurance nerf it's probably more expensive now (although i confess i haven't done the math)

and on the subject of not doing the math, has any one worked out the new "safe to haul" value since mineral prices spiked? i don't think they have, and as such nobody has updated the old rule of thumb about 1bn isk.