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Why the Carrier Skills should not be changed
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Michael MitchellM
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-04-19 02:34:51 UTC
CCP is currently planning on making the skill requirements for many ships much different then they are now.
I have one concern with this:
For Carriers, they are making it so you no longer need the racial BS to 5, but 3 instead.
I have no real issue with this.
What I have an issue with is the new requirement of Jump Drive Operation 5 and JD Calibration 3.
I do see the logic behind making this skill a requirement:
It helps you get around better in low and null sec, you can jump farther and what not.
What it does not help is adding ~20 days on to a train time that would only affect normal space operation.
This is no way that I can think of will help or affect Wormhole dwellers.
Again, I do not mind the train time, it is the effectiveness that is the issue.

This would make cross training Carriers much faster, but you can also accomplish this in a way by making the new requirements something like shield Emission Systems 5/Remote Armor Repair Systems 5 or just do what was is proposed with the Dreadnaught, make the requirements for the Triage Module the requirements (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration 1 [logistics 5]).

This would be far more useful in and out of Wormholes then having the ability to jump farther and consume less fuel with the jump drive.

Please consider this,
Thanks for your time,
- Michael Mitchell
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2013-04-19 12:26:16 UTC
But doesn't the removal of the BS V timesink counter the new JDO V one?
Old Fellow
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-04-19 12:29:10 UTC
Michael MitchellM wrote:
CCP is currently planning on making the skill requirements for many ships much different then they are now.
I have one concern with this:
For Carriers, they are making it so you no longer need the racial BS to 5, but 3 instead.
I have no real issue with this.
What I have an issue with is the new requirement of Jump Drive Operation 5 and JD Calibration 3.
I do see the logic behind making this skill a requirement:
It helps you get around better in low and null sec, you can jump farther and what not.
What it does not help is adding ~20 days on to a train time that would only affect normal space operation.
This is no way that I can think of will help or affect Wormhole dwellers.
Again, I do not mind the train time, it is the effectiveness that is the issue.

This would make cross training Carriers much faster, but you can also accomplish this in a way by making the new requirements something like shield Emission Systems 5/Remote Armor Repair Systems 5 or just do what was is proposed with the Dreadnaught, make the requirements for the Triage Module the requirements (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration 1 [logistics 5]).

This would be far more useful in and out of Wormholes then having the ability to jump farther and consume less fuel with the jump drive.

Please consider this,
Thanks for your time,
- Michael Mitchell




Being able to jump is part of a ship, if it required a module I would agree with you but since it is actually part of the ship the changes make sense I support them.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#4 - 2013-04-19 13:00:20 UTC
Old Fellow wrote:
Michael MitchellM wrote:
CCP is currently planning on making the skill requirements for many ships much different then they are now.
I have one concern with this:
For Carriers, they are making it so you no longer need the racial BS to 5, but 3 instead.
I have no real issue with this.
What I have an issue with is the new requirement of Jump Drive Operation 5 and JD Calibration 3.
I do see the logic behind making this skill a requirement:
It helps you get around better in low and null sec, you can jump farther and what not.
What it does not help is adding ~20 days on to a train time that would only affect normal space operation.
This is no way that I can think of will help or affect Wormhole dwellers.
Again, I do not mind the train time, it is the effectiveness that is the issue.

This would make cross training Carriers much faster, but you can also accomplish this in a way by making the new requirements something like shield Emission Systems 5/Remote Armor Repair Systems 5 or just do what was is proposed with the Dreadnaught, make the requirements for the Triage Module the requirements (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration 1 [logistics 5]).

This would be far more useful in and out of Wormholes then having the ability to jump farther and consume less fuel with the jump drive.

Please consider this,
Thanks for your time,
- Michael Mitchell




Being able to jump is part of a ship, if it required a module I would agree with you but since it is actually part of the ship the changes make sense I support them.

i also support the changes.

jumping is one of the main purpose of those ships, so having the corresponding skills as a prereq make sense.

the removal of * BS5 make up for the added skill requirement, so no issue here either

however, making the triage module as a prerequ for it doesn't make sense, because not many pilots use them, it is often, for various reasons, used only by a few pilots that are specialized in this and have the "triage" carrier race trained

i do use my thanny in combat, and cannot use triage module, cause if we ever need a triage carrier, this will be the job for an archon (wich i don't fly)

unless the dread where you are of no use without siege mod, triage is not mandatory and way less usefull than the ability to efficiently jump, so the mandatory skills shall be the jump related ones
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#5 - 2013-04-19 13:01:33 UTC
Michael MitchellM wrote:
CCP is currently planning on making the skill requirements for many ships much different then they are now.
I have one concern with this:
For Carriers, they are making it so you no longer need the racial BS to 5, but 3 instead.
I have no real issue with this.
What I have an issue with is the new requirement of Jump Drive Operation 5 and JD Calibration 3.
I do see the logic behind making this skill a requirement:
It helps you get around better in low and null sec, you can jump farther and what not.
What it does not help is adding ~20 days on to a train time that would only affect normal space operation.
This is no way that I can think of will help or affect Wormhole dwellers.
Again, I do not mind the train time, it is the effectiveness that is the issue.

This would make cross training Carriers much faster, but you can also accomplish this in a way by making the new requirements something like shield Emission Systems 5/Remote Armor Repair Systems 5 or just do what was is proposed with the Dreadnaught, make the requirements for the Triage Module the requirements (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration 1 [logistics 5]).

This would be far more useful in and out of Wormholes then having the ability to jump farther and consume less fuel with the jump drive.

Please consider this,
Thanks for your time,
- Michael Mitchell



you are complaining about 1 skill when over all BS4+5 is like.. 40 days? pfft.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Michael MitchellM
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-04-21 05:52:06 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:


Being able to jump is part of a ship, if it required a module I would agree with you but since it is actually part of the ship the changes make sense I support them.

i also support the changes.

jumping is one of the main purpose of those ships, so having the corresponding skills as a prereq make sense.

the removal of * BS5 make up for the added skill requirement, so no issue here either

however, making the triage module as a prerequ for it doesn't make sense, because not many pilots use them, it is often, for various reasons, used only by a few pilots that are specialized in this and have the "triage" carrier race trained

i do use my thanny in combat, and cannot use triage module, cause if we ever need a triage carrier, this will be the job for an archon (wich i don't fly)

unless the dread where you are of no use without siege mod, triage is not mandatory and way less usefull than the ability to efficiently jump, so the mandatory skills shall be the jump related ones[/quote]

Yes, it is part of the ship, and currently it (skill reqs) reflects that, an it should stay like that.

I do not think that something that no one can use in WHs should be required to that extent.

The skill req, for the Tactical Triage Reconfig was just a suggestion, and I see why that would work.
I still think that JDO 5 is still to much.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-04-21 05:59:28 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:

jumping is one of the main purpose of those ships, so having the corresponding skills as a prereq make sense.


Err... no. Jumping is as much the "purpose" of carriers as using stargate is the purpose of all subcaps.Roll

Drones/fighters/rr is the purpose of carriers. Or is that too simple?

So yes, added prerequisite should be in the drones/fighter/rr skills instead.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#8 - 2013-04-21 07:16:34 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
But doesn't the removal of the BS V timesink counter the new JDO V one?
More than enough. Seems some just can't help but whine about anything and everything. Roll

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#9 - 2013-04-21 08:16:48 UTC
Carriers haven't been subjected to rebalance yet. I suspect that when they are, all carriers will come out of it with a useful ability for triage.
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#10 - 2013-04-21 09:28:37 UTC
Michael MitchellM wrote:
CCP is currently planning on making the skill requirements for many ships much different then they are now.
I have one concern with this:
For Carriers, they are making it so you no longer need the racial BS to 5, but 3 instead.
I have no real issue with this.
What I have an issue with is the new requirement of Jump Drive Operation 5 and JD Calibration 3.
I do see the logic behind making this skill a requirement:
It helps you get around better in low and null sec, you can jump farther and what not.
What it does not help is adding ~20 days on to a train time that would only affect normal space operation.
This is no way that I can think of will help or affect Wormhole dwellers.
Again, I do not mind the train time, it is the effectiveness that is the issue.

This would make cross training Carriers much faster, but you can also accomplish this in a way by making the new requirements something like shield Emission Systems 5/Remote Armor Repair Systems 5 or just do what was is proposed with the Dreadnaught, make the requirements for the Triage Module the requirements (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration 1 [logistics 5]).

This would be far more useful in and out of Wormholes then having the ability to jump farther and consume less fuel with the jump drive.

Please consider this,
Thanks for your time,
- Michael Mitchell

It doesn't 'add 20 days'. It replaces 20 useless, irrelevant days with 20 days that are useful for 99% of carrier owners.

It's not useful for wormhole dwellers when their capitals are in holes, no, but nor is BS V, save for those that reship and fly Vindicators and Bhaalgorns as well in C6 and C5 holes.

Besides, I know you guys move your capitals out of holes and through known space from time to time. Unless you're one of those weird corps that build capitals in holes they can never get out of, you will need those jump skills some day. The same cannot be said for BS V for a dedicated capital pilot.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#11 - 2013-04-21 13:35:52 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
But doesn't the removal of the BS V timesink counter the new JDO V one?


I can kind of see his point - training a racial BS to V is still useful everywhere pretty much - people commonly use BS for PVE, etc. whereas training JDO V has very little use outside of pure capital training.

I'm probably in the minority that actually prefer it the way around it is - I kind of thing it waters down the game a bit when you can just jump from one race's capital ships to another with a lot more ease.
Michael MitchellM
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-04-21 21:10:56 UTC

It doesn't 'add 20 days'. It replaces 20 useless, irrelevant days with 20 days that are useful for 99% of carrier owners.

It's not useful for wormhole dwellers when their capitals are in holes, no, but nor is BS V, save for those that reship and fly Vindicators and Bhaalgorns as well in C6 and C5 holes.

Besides, I know you guys move your capitals out of holes and through known space from time to time. Unless you're one of those weird corps that build capitals in holes they can never get out of, you will need those jump skills some day. The same cannot be said for BS V for a dedicated capital pilot.[/quote]

Many people have Carriers in Wormholes.
JDO 5 is a very useful skill, but it will not be useful to many people in Wormholes, even if they can bring them to Kspace, everyday operation will not be using the JD in the Wormhole.
It is fine to have JDO as a requirement as it is a built in use for Carriers to jump, but having it required to level 5 is extreme.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-04-21 22:21:42 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
But doesn't the removal of the BS V timesink counter the new JDO V one?


I can kind of see his point - training a racial BS to V is still useful everywhere pretty much - people commonly use BS for PVE, etc. whereas training JDO V has very little use outside of pure capital training.

I'm probably in the minority that actually prefer it the way around it is - I kind of thing it waters down the game a bit when you can just jump from one race's capital ships to another with a lot more ease.



BS 5 being useful is real case by case. With BS tiericide coming even more so. go for easy here, Rokh. Most do not use range bonus to full potential...slight matter of at max range on rails you set yoursefl up for on grid warp attacks. So its good bonus, imo, is the resist one. Which is getting lowered to 20% form 25% max skill With 3 races that have ammo to hit that EM hole and it hard hard, that 5% will be missed. BS 5 across the board in point of fact does not help caladari much tbh....no directdamage bonuses. A bs level 4 cruise CNR will actually out dps golem with cruise...and with the new cruise launcher redo will give even torp golem a run for its money once put in place. All this, no bs level 5 required.

As a caldari BS 5 trained player the sad fact is the only ship it helps on is scorpion to make it a bigger tankier falcon kind of. Which is markedly cheaper for when (not if) it gets blown up lol. got me golem, which sucks. SO my only other hope of being useful is CCP has a massive BLOPS revision on some whiteboard in a dev meeting room soemwhere to turn it into a better boat. I however am not holding my breeath for this.


And ccp probably wants the ease of jumping caps to stem the tide of fotm. Given the pita training the BS 5 many will jsut say give me the best cap race and train that and move on. And a quick review of any "what cap race should I be" thread picks 2 winners for that, gallente and amarr. With ccp shifting the pita train from racial BS to another pita skill, but one that is universal I get the feeling CCP is trying to change that. Lose the BS 5 need and cap pilot could go aww hell, lets give phoenix or nag a go for a switch. I see this working out to some degreee. I know for subcaps I am x-trained all races and I did this to pick out certain ships tbh. Easy to do sub cap so I did it. Caps...its been that BS 5 that makes really not possible.

JDO being a pita but univeral culd see see more then just archons/thanny and moros/rev to blot out the sun. A change I would like to see.
Michael MitchellM
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-04-22 01:35:49 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:


BS 5 being useful is real case by case. With BS tiericide coming even more so. go for easy here, Rokh. Most do not use range bonus to full potential...slight matter of at max range on rails you set yoursefl up for on grid warp attacks. So its good bonus, imo, is the resist one. Which is getting lowered to 20% form 25% max skill With 3 races that have ammo to hit that EM hole and it hard hard, that 5% will be missed. BS 5 across the board in point of fact does not help caladari much tbh....no directdamage bonuses. A bs level 4 cruise CNR will actually out dps golem with cruise...and with the new cruise launcher redo will give even torp golem a run for its money once put in place. All this, no bs level 5 required.

As a caldari BS 5 trained player the sad fact is the only ship it helps on is scorpion to make it a bigger tankier falcon kind of. Which is markedly cheaper for when (not if) it gets blown up lol. got me golem, which sucks. SO my only other hope of being useful is CCP has a massive BLOPS revision on some whiteboard in a dev meeting room soemwhere to turn it into a better boat. I however am not holding my breeath for this.


And ccp probably wants the ease of jumping caps to stem the tide of fotm. Given the pita training the BS 5 many will jsut say give me the best cap race and train that and move on. And a quick review of any "what cap race should I be" thread picks 2 winners for that, gallente and amarr. With ccp shifting the pita train from racial BS to another pita skill, but one that is universal I get the feeling CCP is trying to change that. Lose the BS 5 need and cap pilot could go aww hell, lets give phoenix or nag a go for a switch. I see this working out to some degreee. I know for subcaps I am x-trained all races and I did this to pick out certain ships tbh. Easy to do sub cap so I did it. Caps...its been that BS 5 that makes really not possible.

JDO being a pita but univeral culd see see more then just archons/thanny and moros/rev to blot out the sun. A change I would like to see.


I see what you are saying and I agree, that cross training should be easier, but I do not agree that the common skill should be something that's not useful for a good portion of the people.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-04-22 01:41:38 UTC
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Michael MitchellM wrote:
CCP is currently planning on making the skill requirements for many ships much different then they are now.
I have one concern with this:
For Carriers, they are making it so you no longer need the racial BS to 5, but 3 instead.
I have no real issue with this.
What I have an issue with is the new requirement of Jump Drive Operation 5 and JD Calibration 3.
I do see the logic behind making this skill a requirement:
It helps you get around better in low and null sec, you can jump farther and what not.
What it does not help is adding ~20 days on to a train time that would only affect normal space operation.
This is no way that I can think of will help or affect Wormhole dwellers.
Again, I do not mind the train time, it is the effectiveness that is the issue.

This would make cross training Carriers much faster, but you can also accomplish this in a way by making the new requirements something like shield Emission Systems 5/Remote Armor Repair Systems 5 or just do what was is proposed with the Dreadnaught, make the requirements for the Triage Module the requirements (Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration 1 [logistics 5]).

This would be far more useful in and out of Wormholes then having the ability to jump farther and consume less fuel with the jump drive.

Please consider this,
Thanks for your time,
- Michael Mitchell

It doesn't 'add 20 days'. It replaces 20 useless, irrelevant days with 20 days that are useful for 99% of carrier owners.


That 99% figure sounds real scientific there. Which part of your ass did you pull that out of?Roll

Instead of that, we can put added prerequisite into drones/fighters/RR, useful for 100%, since it's, you know, the purpose of carriers. Which carrier owner says "Yeah! I'm gonna get that carrier for the awesome Jump Operation V."Lol
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-04-22 03:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
sabre906 wrote:
[Instead of that, we can put added prerequisite into drones/fighters/RR, useful for 100%, since it's, you know, the purpose of carriers. Which carrier owner says "Yeah! I'm gonna get that carrier for the awesome Jump Operation V."Lol



the problem is alot of those prereqs would be case by case and needed even leess than jdo 5 for the masses.

Niddy has no cap transfer bonus, other do. Of those that do, many current carrier pilots don't train them high if at all. So you'd have "if you can fly it now, you can fly it after" pilots with crap cap transfer skills and the new breed going so why exactly am I training this.

So does niddy to not have archon pilots whining train cap transfer and archon is fixing to train shield reps to make the chimera pilots happy as they have ot learn armour? Which is what would have to happen if you are making RR a univeral train. Which i think is why jdo wsa picked....all carriers needs this. Wh'ers not as much but in this realm I see no way to make all happy.


Your drone skills also an issue. The only real universal check in the box is covered, drone interfacing 5. CCP force feeding say drone navigation 5 would not go over well. At level 5, the drones TD themselves with speed induced tracking issues. And eve imo is better place if a carrier pilot out of laziness or stupidity runs out flights of fighters at durability or fighters at less than 4. Baddie carrier pilots wants less damage and hp's on his little friends, by all means do it please.

And you have many carrier pilots who can't run heavy drones. Thye said meh...they are crap and skipped em. By and large a less useful drone class. force feeding them would be more a pita than jdo 5 in my opinion. especiall post patch day when all those grandfathered in under if you can fly it now....... will probably be going sucks to be you noobs learning a drone you will probably never use on a carrier. And the noob cap pilots will be telling them thanks for reminding us...:(
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#17 - 2013-04-22 10:14:22 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:

jumping is one of the main purpose of those ships, so having the corresponding skills as a prereq make sense.


Err... no. Jumping is as much the "purpose" of carriers as using stargate is the purpose of all subcaps.Roll

Drones/fighters/rr is the purpose of carriers. Or is that too simple?

So yes, added prerequisite should be in the drones/fighter/rr skills instead.


one might want to fly a carrier before posting a comment.

those skills are mandatory for any cap pilot (beside the WH dwellers i agree).

the ability to actually move your capital efficiently and project it is one of the main purpose of carriers (as well as those you listed).

they are all of equal importance (hence the fact carriers have the best jump range).

moving several cap can be a nightmare when some pilot just have the minimal jump range (look, we need to make 3 jumps instead of one....)
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#18 - 2013-04-22 10:22:40 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
But doesn't the removal of the BS V timesink counter the new JDO V one?


I can kind of see his point - training a racial BS to V is still useful everywhere pretty much - people commonly use BS for PVE, etc. whereas training JDO V has very little use outside of pure capital training.

I'm probably in the minority that actually prefer it the way around it is - I kind of thing it waters down the game a bit when you can just jump from one race's capital ships to another with a lot more ease.



BS 5 being useful is real case by case. With BS tiericide coming even more so. go for easy here, Rokh. Most do not use range bonus to full potential...slight matter of at max range on rails you set yoursefl up for on grid warp attacks. So its good bonus, imo, is the resist one. Which is getting lowered to 20% form 25% max skill With 3 races that have ammo to hit that EM hole and it hard hard, that 5% will be missed. BS 5 across the board in point of fact does not help caladari much tbh....no directdamage bonuses. A bs level 4 cruise CNR will actually out dps golem with cruise...and with the new cruise launcher redo will give even torp golem a run for its money once put in place. All this, no bs level 5 required.

As a caldari BS 5 trained player the sad fact is the only ship it helps on is scorpion to make it a bigger tankier falcon kind of. Which is markedly cheaper for when (not if) it gets blown up lol. got me golem, which sucks. SO my only other hope of being useful is CCP has a massive BLOPS revision on some whiteboard in a dev meeting room soemwhere to turn it into a better boat. I however am not holding my breeath for this.


And ccp probably wants the ease of jumping caps to stem the tide of fotm. Given the pita training the BS 5 many will jsut say give me the best cap race and train that and move on. And a quick review of any "what cap race should I be" thread picks 2 winners for that, gallente and amarr. With ccp shifting the pita train from racial BS to another pita skill, but one that is universal I get the feeling CCP is trying to change that. Lose the BS 5 need and cap pilot could go aww hell, lets give phoenix or nag a go for a switch. I see this working out to some degreee. I know for subcaps I am x-trained all races and I did this to pick out certain ships tbh. Easy to do sub cap so I did it. Caps...its been that BS 5 that makes really not possible.

JDO being a pita but univeral culd see see more then just archons/thanny and moros/rev to blot out the sun. A change I would like to see.


+1000

before training for capitals, i had a choice between minmatar and gallente ones (had both BS IV)

i choosed gallente, for obvious reasons, but now that the skills will be changed, and the Naglfar being revamped, i could give it a try (wich i would never have with the BS V skill req.)

and why not to the archon too, cause it will be a pretty fast train now.

so overall ,imao it is a very good chnge CCP did on that
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2013-04-22 11:27:02 UTC
Well, I'm one of those who have 0 use for the new capital skill prerequisites (no jumping in wormholes), but I also realize that I'm in the minority and decided to just suck it up and train caps before the skill change.

Saves me a month of training for useless skills (battleship V is actually a rather awesome skill and I've had it for 1.5 years already).

.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#20 - 2013-04-22 12:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Roime wrote:
Well, I'm one of those who have 0 use for the new capital skill prerequisites (no jumping in wormholes), but I also realize that I'm in the minority and decided to just suck it up and train caps before the skill change.

Saves me a month of training for useless skills (battleship V is actually a rather awesome skill and I've had it for 1.5 years already).

i understand your pov, sometime being myself in the minority player impacted by some changes, but at least in your case, it doesn't ruin part of your gameplay.

sometime being in the minority sucks, even if this is fun and have great advantages for the time it last, but it seems CCP policy is to align everyone in the same path so everyone plays the same....wich is sad imao
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