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T1 (and JF) Freighter balance

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Ap01110n
Vendetta Collective
#1 - 2013-04-21 18:20:07 UTC
What are the chances that feighters will get an update soon?

T1 Freigthers were put in the game before BCs, T2 guns etc, and have never been changed, even though the environment has become increasingly hostile. They are insanely easy to kill for their cost/size etc on highsec gates even not autopiloting.

Jump Freighters are slightly harder to kill, but even though they get racial resistance bonuses, the great mass of their HP lies in structure, with no dmg control.

Are there any plans to change this? It should be a relatively quick and easy fix with little to no side-effects on pvp or pve (actual pvp - not talking about ganking)
Dave Stark
#2 - 2013-04-21 18:24:39 UTC
and in which way are any of the freighters redundant and/or broken?

ships aren't updated for the fun of it, they're updated because they have an issue. such as being completely overshadowed by other ships and/or being useless.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2013-04-21 18:28:24 UTC
Ap01110n wrote:
What are the chances that feighters will get an update soon?

T1 Freigthers were put in the game before BCs, T2 guns etc, and have never been changed, even though the environment has become increasingly hostile. They are insanely easy to kill for their cost/size etc on highsec gates even not autopiloting.

Jump Freighters are slightly harder to kill, but even though they get racial resistance bonuses, the great mass of their HP lies in structure, with no dmg control.

Are there any plans to change this? It should be a relatively quick and easy fix with little to no side-effects on pvp or pve (actual pvp - not talking about ganking)



And the feature or idea that you are suggesting is...?
Ap01110n
Vendetta Collective
#4 - 2013-04-21 18:32:18 UTC
they arent redudant and/or broken, and they cannot be overshadowed by any other ship class because they are the only ship that fills their role.

The reason they need updating is that they havent changed since before Red Moon Rising, while cheap ships that kill them have become increasingly dangerous (namely destroyers and T3 BCs). Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit. At least make it break even (require more suicide ships to kill it).

Ap01110n
Vendetta Collective
#5 - 2013-04-21 18:33:19 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:



And the feature or idea that you are suggesting is...?



Buff the freigthers to have more HP or add a built in dmg control or a single lowslot.
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#6 - 2013-04-21 18:51:24 UTC
Ap01110n wrote:
Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit.

Hmmm... nope. That's pretty okay. It's guaranteed that they'll die. It's not guaranteed you will.

Save the drones!
Ap01110n
Vendetta Collective
#7 - 2013-04-21 18:53:13 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Ap01110n wrote:
Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit.

Hmmm... nope. That's pretty okay. It's guaranteed that they'll die. It's not guaranteed you will.



In practice, they do die. Especially when you call in concord on a different gate before engaging.
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-04-21 18:57:39 UTC
the single low slot or rig slot will never happen, as that would tip the cargo hold potential over capital ship size. mid slots mabey, high slots, not likely, imagine the carnage of a smartbombing freighter near jita 4-4 undock?

i could see some changes, give freighters a cargo mode and a speed mode, full cargo and crawler speed, or much reduced capacity for better align/warp/top speed for those times you only have a few m3 of higher value cargo to carry.

But the best way to prevent freighter ganks is a fleetmate in a command ship giving the appropriate boosts with remote repping drones. problem solved.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-04-21 19:15:25 UTC
Ap01110n wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:



And the feature or idea that you are suggesting is...?



Buff the freigthers to have more HP or add a built in dmg control or a single lowslot.



And the reason that you did not just post in one of the numerous other threads suggesting exactly this is...?

And the reason this is needed is...?

And this will be balanced by...?
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#10 - 2013-04-21 19:29:17 UTC
Ap01110n wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
Ap01110n wrote:
Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit.

Hmmm... nope. That's pretty okay. It's guaranteed that they'll die. It's not guaranteed you will.



In practice, they do die. Especially when you call in concord on a different gate before engaging.

My statement still stands. It's guaranteed that they will die (if they do not then CCP considers it an exploit and you can be reimbursed). It's NOT guaranteed that you will die. You can have a friend rep you, use bounties, try a mercenary corp, fly with a fleet, etc. etc.

The options available to you are countless. Your choosing not to use them is just that: your choice.

Save the drones!
Ap01110n
Vendetta Collective
#11 - 2013-04-21 19:31:19 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:



And the reason that you did not just post in one of the numerous other threads suggesting exactly this is...?

And the reason this is needed is...?

And this will be balanced by...?



1) Didnt see any recently

2) See post 4

3) Its already unbalanced, this would bring balance


Seems like redundant / rhetorical questions...
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#12 - 2013-04-21 20:07:46 UTC
Ap01110n wrote:
The reason they need updating is that they havent changed since before Red Moon Rising, while cheap ships that kill them have become increasingly dangerous (namely destroyers and T3 BCs).

The "cheap ship" thing is actually false. If anything... suicide ganking freighters has become MORE expensive despite the introduction of Tier 3s.

Before Tier 3 battlecruisers people used Tempests and Brutixes... which, at the time, were respectively going for about 75 to 80 mil and 30 to 45 mil each... to gank "big" ships
Also remember that insurance still paid out even if you suicide ganked. That meant no matter what the outcome of the gank was, you would have lost little beyond a bit of security status and pride.

Then Tier 3 battlecruisers were introduced... insurance was removed if you were CONCORDED... and mineral prices rose sharply.
Gankers did immediately see the potential in Tier 3s... but with the removal of insurance for suicide ganking they would have to bear the full cost of the loss... and with [then] rising mineral prices the base cost of ganking was also going up.

Ap01110n wrote:
Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit. At least make it break even (require more suicide ships to kill it)

Why not? Even though cost is not a reliable metric for power in this game... having to use almost 1 billion ISK worth of ships to kill a ship hull worth 1.4 bil seems about fair.

How did you Veterans start?
Narffy
Dominus Imperium
#13 - 2013-04-21 22:23:23 UTC
Quote:
the single low slot or rig slot will never happen, as that would tip the cargo hold potential over capital ship size

CCP has added a flag for cap ships like isCapitalShip and they can easily check for this flag and prevent people from transporting cap ships in freighters now days.

EVE has changed quite a bit since Freighters were introduced. Now that CCP is balancing slot layouts for all ship classes, it is only right that they visit Freighters and Jump Freighters. Shuttles have as many slots as these capital ships have. Their slots and rigs should be balanced with other capital ships. EVE is suppose to be a sandbox with all sorts of possibilities / optionsand freighters are currently out of line with this sandbox philosophy.
Dave Stark
#14 - 2013-04-22 00:04:30 UTC
Ap01110n wrote:
they arent redudant and/or broken, and they cannot be overshadowed by any other ship class because they are the only ship that fills their role.

The reason they need updating is that they havent changed since before Red Moon Rising, while cheap ships that kill them have become increasingly dangerous (namely destroyers and T3 BCs). Theres no reason that a billion worth of ships should be able to suicide kill a 1.4 bil ship in highsec for a profit. At least make it break even (require more suicide ships to kill it).



"they haven't been changed since before red moon rising" implies that they're working as intended and are fine. if it's not broken, don't fix it. i further this idea based on the fact that you've even admitted they don't need fixing in the first line of what i've just quoted.

sure there's a reason why those ships should be able to gank a 1.4bil isk ship in high sec for profit. it's to teach people a valuable lesson about not putting billions of isk of loot in the cargohold of a freighter just because it has the space to do so.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#15 - 2013-04-22 00:15:52 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
and with [then] rising mineral prices the base cost of ganking was also going up..

True, but the depending on the items being dropped the return increased as well.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-04-22 01:49:53 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
and with [then] rising mineral prices the base cost of ganking was also going up..

True, but the depending on the items being dropped the return increased as well.


Oh please, before 1400 volley, then nados, ganking isn't nearly as cheap as it is now. Stop whinning.Roll
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-04-22 06:32:19 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

sure there's a reason why those ships should be able to gank a 1.4bil isk ship in high sec for profit. it's to teach people a valuable lesson about not putting billions of isk of loot in the cargohold of a freighter just because it has the space to do so.


lol what a bs
go eve kill big kills and you will see that there are dozens of frieghters with less than 1bill cargo killed ,
this alone prooves how wrong you are
Dave Stark
#18 - 2013-04-22 08:19:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Naomi Knight wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

sure there's a reason why those ships should be able to gank a 1.4bil isk ship in high sec for profit. it's to teach people a valuable lesson about not putting billions of isk of loot in the cargohold of a freighter just because it has the space to do so.


lol what a bs
go eve kill big kills and you will see that there are dozens of frieghters with less than 1bill cargo killed ,
this alone prooves how wrong you are


and? that means they aren't profitable and thus are irrelevant to this discussion.
we're talking about being ganked for profit.

please, in future, read before you post.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-04-22 08:34:56 UTC
Lessons:

1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose
2. if a freighter can be ganked by ships worth about 1 billion isk, then carry less than a billion in your cargo. There, gank unprofitable, only bastards/emergent gameplay is left to consider :D
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2013-04-22 09:18:03 UTC
So, what you're saying is, the fact that it takes a minimum of 15-16 people (in a 0.5 system, far more in higher security) , in specifically fit tier 3 battlecruisers, coordinating their attacks precisely to avoid the crippling effect of CONCORD, to kill 1 guy (who may or may not be actually playing the game at that moment) in a freighter/jump freighter is unfair....

to the 1 guy.

Might wanna think a bit on that.
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