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Bring back the Battleship
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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-04-10 15:44:25 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:
What I'd like to see is an expansion on the T3 line of modular ships to include Frigates and Battleships.

as a guy with too much money who likes flying expensive pimpmobiles i would also be happy to see more T3 hulls. but. balancing them is an inherent disaster. let's face it: battleships are not really suitable to do anything other than, well, battle. there are only so many subsystems with specialized purpose that you can implement and expect to be used. then there is still the price issue. for some reason there are still people who don't understand how more expensive ships need to be better for people to fly them.



If there is anything people like in an MMO it's being able to customize something. Price notwithstanding.

Strat cruisers are in a pretty good place right now. The Tengu has fallen out of favor some since the HML nerf. But otherwise the popularity for T3's is pretty good.

T3 battleships. Mmm. More customizable goodness. Plus it would make nullsec flip a lid, and start dumping money into our pockets and invading W-space giving us more things to shoot at.


what's the point of customization if everyone "customizes" the same subsystems? when was the last time you saw a rail tengu or a ham legion? and how long did you laugh at the guy for flying this waste of nanoribbons? and that's not even taking into account the relation between T3s and HACs/command ships.
i understand and approve CCPs reluctance to open another can of worms like that, though it pains me to admit it.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-04-10 16:16:07 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
[

what's the point of customization if everyone "customizes" the same subsystems? when was the last time you saw a rail tengu or a ham legion? and how long did you laugh at the guy for flying this waste of nanoribbons? and that's not even taking into account the relation between T3s and HACs/command ships.
i understand and approve CCPs reluctance to open another can of worms like that, though it pains me to admit it.


The problem isn't people not changing up T3s, it's that many of the alternative fits just don't work, like a drone proteus. The laser Legion isn't very good. A rail Tengu just lacks in any offensive capibilities but that's because of rails themselves.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-04-10 18:59:17 UTC
Meytal wrote:
[quote=Frothgar]I'm half surprised CCP didn't add the option for alliances to specify a voting sheet: log in and one-click to vote the way your alliance dictates.


The dev's tried to force people to actually think, look at the names of these people, and put them in order, rather than a 2-click, I-have-no-idea-who-i-voted-for, I just clicked a link fest.

Voting is cumbersome.. thats FINE. If you can't spend 5 minutes voting and putting people in the order you like.. don't vote. The bulk of the alliances got big evemails saying "Vote for these guys". Making it so that all people have to do is "click here, vote counted" without them making any concious decision on how they voted for would be.. well. wrong, bordering on fraud.

And there were automated ways of doing it (not automatic, but with some rejiggering people figured out how to mass vote multiple accounts quickly). That was their concious choice to do that though, though I can admit, those who did it, probably had no clue who they were voting for anyway.

I would make it more cumbersome, or find a way to stop automatic "click" voting. This was a first for CCP and I applaud them for the system they came up with (regarding the voting ballot itself). I'd adjust it so bookmarking does not work.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-04-10 21:30:56 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
[

what's the point of customization if everyone "customizes" the same subsystems? when was the last time you saw a rail tengu or a ham legion? and how long did you laugh at the guy for flying this waste of nanoribbons? and that's not even taking into account the relation between T3s and HACs/command ships.
i understand and approve CCPs reluctance to open another can of worms like that, though it pains me to admit it.


The problem isn't people not changing up T3s, it's that many of the alternative fits just don't work, like a drone proteus. The laser Legion isn't very good. A rail Tengu just lacks in any offensive capibilities but that's because of rails themselves.

not very good in comparison to what? to the other subsystems? or other comparable ships? by this logic, there can only be one 'good' option; the one that performs best. this is the essence of the current balance issues between T3s and HACs and expanding these issues to frigates and battleships won't help anyone.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Lydia vanPersie
SHAKIRA LAW ENFORCERS
#25 - 2013-04-15 13:02:35 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

not very good in comparison to what? to the other subsystems? or other comparable ships? by this logic, there can only be one 'good' option; the one that performs best. this is the essence of the current balance issues between T3s and HACs and expanding these issues to frigates and battleships won't help anyone.


Nice strawman, please try again.

(^;
Oxandrolone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-04-15 13:10:53 UTC
Jack nailed it, BS's are not used in fleets because dreads murder them.

They are nerfing dread tracking a little (through the tracking module nerf) so lets see what that does.
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-04-15 20:08:34 UTC
Oxandrolone wrote:
Jack nailed it, BS's are not used in fleets because dreads murder them.

They are nerfing dread tracking a little (through the tracking module nerf) so lets see what that does.



I agree that dreads do murder BS, and that their presence mean for tough times for many ships.

That being said, even if I could swarm a dread with BS (Which I can't) I'm still going to take 10x more Tech 3 cruisers just for the sheer amount of utility that comes with them for the mass.

Is anyone not in agreement that 1x BS vs 9-10 T3 Cruisers for mass limits is a pretty convincing nail in the BS coffin?
Deus Vex
Phantom Psionics
#28 - 2013-04-17 00:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Deus Vex
Battleships are alive and well for those who feel the constraint of a lack of pilots / firepower before the constraints of WH mass limits. (i.e. those who aren't the 'big boys' in W-Space or taking on dreads)
chris elliot
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#29 - 2013-04-17 01:15:50 UTC
With the ginormous hateon fozzie and ytterbium have for t3's, battleships may kind of be forced to become more used in w-space in the future.
chris elliot
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#30 - 2013-04-17 01:17:53 UTC
Oxandrolone wrote:
Jack nailed it, BS's are not used in fleets because dreads murder them.

They are nerfing dread tracking a little (through the tracking module nerf) so lets see what that does.



It will do nothing because lokis will always be able to web and paint something so that a dread can track it.
Deus Vex
Phantom Psionics
#31 - 2013-04-19 23:12:03 UTC
Bring forth the upcoming new geddon :D
Omen Nihilo
Omen Holdings
#32 - 2013-04-20 01:09:58 UTC
Battleships in solo/small gang pvp are underpowered no matter where you go—w-space and k-space. I think if CCP rebalances them to make them viable again in solo/small gang pvp then they might see a resurgence in w-space.
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-04-20 16:29:54 UTC
First person going to Fanfest to ask/get a CCP comment about

"Any thoughts about making battleships a more viable ship type in wormholes? Mass limits mean you can bring only 10ish of them if you want to come back home vs 100+ Tech 3 cruisers"

I'll give 250mil ISK to.

If a Dev wants to just comment about it, I'll donate said ISK to a person or group (eve uni) of their choice.

Post said Comment in the Wormhole forum or this thread to claim your ISK.



For those commenting on Balance. Thats a secondary issue. Balance is making the BS an attractive ship to fly (which is why I want to use them in the first place) Mass limitations alone mean its just not an option.
Calexis Atredies
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#34 - 2013-04-20 18:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Calexis Atredies
I quite like where BS are at the moment, WH mass restrictions means you have to be careful with what you bring with. The BS isnt really in the DPS role in this case but more its utility, T3's are better for making up the bulk of the dps platforms due to their tanking profile and respectible damage output (Legion fleet is best WH fleet). BS on the other hand take on the "utlity role" by this I mean effects like neuting from Bhaal's or jamming from Widows.

Black Ops are one of the coolest ships to have in your hole seeing as Black Ops bridging onto targets in nullsec from the entrance to your wormhole gives the enemy 0 warning. Most of the time the scouts they position in bottleneck systems are made obsolete by the spawn location of your wormhole.

Don't be too disheartneded by not seeing the BS taking a leading role in wormholes, though they are not the fleet main battle line they are still incredibly important.
Scilent Enigma
Vae Victis Inc.
#35 - 2013-04-20 20:21:33 UTC
Reading this thread somehow made my brain hickup and give me an idea, (mind you, it's probarbly bad but when my brain hickups, well, might as well get it out rather than lookin like I have to pass gas)...

The problem:
BS mass is too great to be viable in WH ops.

Not so good idea that what I think is my brain came up with:
Script the microjumpdrive, without script it works the same as now, but with the script "Wormhole Attunement" (copyright and trademark registration pending, or not) activating the MJD with a WH on grid within reasonable range will let the BS pass through leaving only the mass footprint of a BC on the WH.

There.. sorry about that, feels so much better now.. please feel free to ignore...Blink
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-04-21 16:41:46 UTC
^^^^^

Thats actually a pretty cool idea since it has a blob restricting cooldown.
chris elliot
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#37 - 2013-04-21 18:34:17 UTC
CCP does not like multipurpose modules though. It is a good idea though but doubtful they would do it without having to make another module.
Sum Olgy
Perkone
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-04-21 22:40:45 UTC
Saw a guy with 2 SB fit Scorps camping a C5/C2 the other day.

I've seen enough Bhaals recently to know they're still in use.

BS's are still viable for PvE, just not optimal.

Back in the day we all trained Amarr BS and large lasers - many POS's would still be alive today if we hadn't... And yes then came the Tier 3 BC adn all that stopped.

I'd say they're still around - perhaps the majority of people who are commenting here have been there, done that adn seen the (better skilled) light?
Hoodie Mafia
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-04-22 10:10:58 UTC
I honestly think we will see a lot of armageddons used in fights where there was no intentions to use the hole for capitals.
While they might be less effective than Bhaalgorns and in some cases even more effective due to the stupid range they will get on heavy neuts, they only cost a fraction of what a Bhaalgorn costs and therefore can be committed to a fight a lot easier
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#40 - 2013-04-22 10:47:54 UTC
Scilent Enigma wrote:
Reading this thread somehow made my brain hickup and give me an idea, (mind you, it's probarbly bad but when my brain hickups, well, might as well get it out rather than lookin like I have to pass gas)...

The problem:
BS mass is too great to be viable in WH ops.

Not so good idea that what I think is my brain came up with:
Script the microjumpdrive, without script it works the same as now, but with the script "Wormhole Attunement" (copyright and trademark registration pending, or not) activating the MJD with a WH on grid within reasonable range will let the BS pass through leaving only the mass footprint of a BC on the WH.

There.. sorry about that, feels so much better now.. please feel free to ignore...Blink


Great idea, but how about this tweak: MJD reduces mass during the spool-up time, for the same reason as HIC bubble, so it's easier to bump the battleship out of alignment? No scripts needed, just a little copypasta from the bubble mod.



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