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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#441 - 2013-04-20 11:34:11 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
With a 20% cap buff, things get better, but keep in mind this is with all skills level 5- I shouldn't need a max skillpoint character to run level 4 missions.

I ran lvl4 missions with 4 months of skills in an amarr ship. Low skill players will do lvl4 missions fine. Also, remember the rokh pilot too won't have all skills at five.

And you forgot the premise anyway : amarr can already do lvl4 missions fine with pulse. The question is if they can do it with beams.

Now, try this :
[Abaddon, tachyon-pve]

Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactor Control Unit II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Xray L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Xray L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Xray L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Xray L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Xray L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Xray L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Xray L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Xray L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Over in PG, but after the buff, that should be fine, and you should have even more cap life. T1 ammo, to be fair with your Rokh. Cap life is 8'14". This is actually, again, better than the Rokh in almost any way : 558dps@49,5km with infinitely more tracking, which you greatly overlook.

In fact, as I expected, tachyon are more than fine and will already endanger railguns niche. Though beams actually need some help, yet you don't seem focused on them, and not buff to fitting or cap use can save them, as I already demonstrated.

In the end, it doesn't matter how many fitting or cap mod you need ; only the performances of the ship matter, and the performances will be insanely strong.

So, let's sum up the state of amarr ships :
- they are the best to shoot between 20 and 60km, whatever it can be ;
- tachyon will be, at the very least, a very strong competitor to railguns for the 60-150km range.

Amarr Victor ?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#442 - 2013-04-20 12:28:24 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
...Amarr Victor ?

What's with all the mission arguments .. balance it for PvP and it will automatically work for PvE as the former pushes the boundaries a lot more.

Amarr Victor .. with one fitting mod, seven (7!) cap mods and a nonexistent tank? Might work if you have aggro control in all rooms down pat but that T1 repairer wont stand a chance otherwise Smile
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#443 - 2013-04-20 12:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
...Amarr Victor ?

What's with all the mission arguments .. balance it for PvP and it will automatically work for PvE as the former pushes the boundaries a lot more.

Amarr Victor .. with one fitting mod, seven (7!) cap mods and a nonexistent tank? Might work if you have aggro control in all rooms down pat but that T1 repairer wont stand a chance otherwise Smile

I adressed the pve case because of the carebears crying around here for all these cap and fitting mods in their ships. I already made the comparison between a fleet rokh and a fleet abaddon, some pages ago.

The conclusion was that the only thing the Rokh retain is a little more buffer and resists.

The only reason to live of railguns is their superiority at long range. With tachyon becoming better, railguns come back to their state of 2 years ago.

RIP railguns.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#444 - 2013-04-20 12:52:23 UTC
and that is what I'm trying to push into CCPs head. Cap draw is obscene when it takes 6 (with cap implants) or 7 (without) rigs/mods to sustain a decent amount of cap management while dual repping (because we can't use rigs to improve a single repper as we need the cap stability to fire all 8 lasers and permarun the 1 repper, making us throw on a second emergency repper to pick up the balance...)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#445 - 2013-04-20 12:59:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Pelea Ming wrote:
and that is what I'm trying to push into CCPs head. Cap draw is obscene when it takes 6 (with cap implants) or 7 (without) rigs/mods to sustain a decent amount of cap management while dual repping (because we can't use rigs to improve a single repper as we need the cap stability to fire all 8 lasers and permarun the 1 repper, making us throw on a second emergency repper to pick up the balance...)

That doesn't make sense : despite all these modules dedicated to cap and fitting, your ship will better better than the others !!!
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#446 - 2013-04-20 17:12:32 UTC
Yup, I can already see that Tachyons are too powerful with these buffs; they'll be fit on Ravens and Drakes and Dominixes and Tempests from now on. CCP plox nerf Tachyons.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#447 - 2013-04-21 01:11:03 UTC
test server Duality is now seeded with the new Battleships, Navy Frigates, and Navy Cruisers, as well as the new Lasers and Cruise Launchers. I will be in it for the next couple of hours, feel free to join me in channel Amarr Test.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#448 - 2013-04-21 13:06:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
for what it's worth, I've noticed that they've changed the cargoholds on all the ships, presumably to allow them to hold some pre-determined amount of boosters/ammo that is meant to allow them to be in some sort of balance for PvP.

So obviously NOT addressing the PvE issues, which I will be in Duality later on today to look into, I spent 3 hours tweaking out an Abaddon fit last night, but I want to test it out before I start pointing out the flaws I ran into just fitting it.

Though I was happy enough that my Incursion Vanguard site running Tachmare will no longer require the Eluctiation rig with the implants I already use with it, I was able to keep it's DPS the same while giving it a slight boost to scan res and range.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#449 - 2013-04-21 16:57:00 UTC
What's the point of even talking about a Tachy Abaddon, tracking is atrocious and you restrict yourself to missions against Sansha/Blood/Eon. Tach's may be viable on the lower resist Apocalypse however, but then your cap will really be hurting as the requirement to tank 20% more is rather significant.

Missile Armageddon. No other option comes close .. double bonus use of TP to keep drones aggro free and assist missiles. Adopt or Die (not a typo Smile)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#450 - 2013-04-21 21:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
No, it can't. Bad cap life happens to be a particularly crippling aspect, same as having trouble fitting weapons.
It's one of those singular aspects that can completely ruin a ship.
A damage ship that can't fire its weapons is useless. Why you seem to think this doesn't matter is baffling to me.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#451 - 2013-04-21 21:54:43 UTC
I have removed some less desirable post that did not contribute positively to the discussion at hand.

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ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#452 - 2013-04-21 22:09:47 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
No, it can't. Bad cap life happens to be a particularly crippling aspect, same as having trouble fitting weapons.
It's one of those singular aspects that can completely ruin a ship.
A damage ship that can't fire its weapons is useless. Why you seem to think this doesn't matter is baffling to me.

This crippling aspect didn't prevent the Abaddon from becoming one of the best ship in game. And the same goes for multiple laser ships. Can you show me one ship ruined by it's bad capacitor ?
Naomi Anthar
#453 - 2013-04-21 22:40:14 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
No, it can't. Bad cap life happens to be a particularly crippling aspect, same as having trouble fitting weapons.
It's one of those singular aspects that can completely ruin a ship.
A damage ship that can't fire its weapons is useless. Why you seem to think this doesn't matter is baffling to me.

This crippling aspect didn't prevent the Abaddon from becoming one of the best ship in game. And the same goes for multiple laser ships. Can you show me one ship ruined by it's bad capacitor ?


And you think it was one of best ships because of what ? It was best because of resist bonus not because of goddamn lasers T_T if it could use autocannons or artillery (aka being bonused for it) then it would.
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#454 - 2013-04-22 06:52:02 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
No, it can't. Bad cap life happens to be a particularly crippling aspect, same as having trouble fitting weapons.
It's one of those singular aspects that can completely ruin a ship.
A damage ship that can't fire its weapons is useless. Why you seem to think this doesn't matter is baffling to me.

This crippling aspect didn't prevent the Abaddon from becoming one of the best ship in game. And the same goes for multiple laser ships. Can you show me one ship ruined by it's bad capacitor ?


And you think it was one of best ships because of what ? It was best because of resist bonus not because of goddamn lasers T_T if it could use autocannons or artillery (aka being bonused for it) then it would.


Actually some historical data I dug up pointed to Abaddons using Artillery at some point in EVE lifetime. En masse. I think it was a "thing" on Serenity until just recently.

Not that Our Dear Special Needs (he's got a very special need to keep Lasers ******) Friend Bouh will ever admit it's a problem. Not that it matters much, because he's just a lone troll.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#455 - 2013-04-22 09:24:45 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
And you think it was one of best ships because of what ? It was best because of resist bonus not because of goddamn lasers T_T if it could use autocannons or artillery (aka being bonused for it) then it would.

Should I conclude that actually no ship suffer from these crippling cap and fitting ?

If the hull advantages compensate for the drawbacks of weapons, then it's balanced. If you buff the weapons on such a hull, then it become OP.

That's really the first time I see people acknowledging for ships being rather good and still crying for a buff like if it was require for the ship to be used.
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#456 - 2013-04-22 09:42:07 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
And you think it was one of best ships because of what ? It was best because of resist bonus not because of goddamn lasers T_T if it could use autocannons or artillery (aka being bonused for it) then it would.

Should I conclude that actually no ship suffer from these crippling cap and fitting ?

If the hull advantages compensate for the drawbacks of weapons, then it's balanced. If you buff the weapons on such a hull, then it become OP.

That's really the first time I see people acknowledging for ships being rather good and still crying for a buff like if it was require for the ship to be used.


Called it.

Dear Bouh, every time a ship, as a standard fit, does not use it's bonused weaponry thousands OCD-suffering nerds cry out in terror. They don't get cut short though, unlike poor souls on Aldebaran. Why? Because it points out there's something terribly wrong with balance going on.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#457 - 2013-04-22 10:18:13 UTC
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
Dear Bouh, every time a ship, as a standard fit, does not use it's bonused weaponry thousands OCD-suffering nerds cry out in terror. They don't get cut short though, unlike poor souls on Aldebaran. Why? Because it points out there's something terribly wrong with balance going on.

Sometimes, a bonus is situational and make the ship very good in these situations, yet the ship can be good in other situations even without using this bonus.

I know this situation puzzle a lot of people, but I don't see it as problematic, that is a tool for balance like any other I think.
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#458 - 2013-04-22 11:37:45 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
Dear Bouh, every time a ship, as a standard fit, does not use it's bonused weaponry thousands OCD-suffering nerds cry out in terror. They don't get cut short though, unlike poor souls on Aldebaran. Why? Because it points out there's something terribly wrong with balance going on.

Sometimes, a bonus is situational and make the ship very good in these situations, yet the ship can be good in other situations even without using this bonus.

I know this situation puzzle a lot of people, but I don't see it as problematic, that is a tool for balance like any other I think.


So you should be perfectly fine with Railguns being totally unviable, right?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#459 - 2013-04-22 12:57:37 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
No, it can't. Bad cap life happens to be a particularly crippling aspect, same as having trouble fitting weapons.
It's one of those singular aspects that can completely ruin a ship.
A damage ship that can't fire its weapons is useless. Why you seem to think this doesn't matter is baffling to me.

This crippling aspect didn't prevent the Abaddon from becoming one of the best ship in game. And the same goes for multiple laser ships. Can you show me one ship ruined by it's bad capacitor ?

It wasn't one of the best ships. It was very situationally decent. In many cases people didn't even put lasers on them.
Our alliance used them for a time. Our fit had a T2 elutriation rig (-25% cap use) and a T2 HCB, and it still wasn't able to fight for very long before it ran out of cap. We no longer use them. We don't even use Zealots currently.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Doctor Ape MD
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#460 - 2013-04-22 12:57:56 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


Besides, I haven't made missions for ages, so my pve knowledge is a bit outdated, but as much as I can see from these fits, not so much.




Honestly, I think you've said enough right there concerning Amarr BS mission running. Why you continue to argue the subject is beyond me, but it appears to have something to do with how lasers compare to railguns. If you really want to compare the two weapon systems correctly, you have to compare lasers (pulse and beam) to hybrids (railguns AND blasters).