Market Discussions

someone put up a sell order for 116600 units as it is above 18% it will not be able to be purchased.

try and buy a single unit. test away while you can. the 116600 or any other order will be reduced


edit: There is a new low sell order up for 202701 units now... as it is above 18% regional price it can not be purchased or reduced.

we had this discussion about a week ago

stop being a bad and do some reading

Short version which Vera is referring to:
When an order expires, it's not actually removed from the market until downtime (sometimes. I suspect there's a cleanup function that runs periodically) it just ceases to display.

So you can still buy from orders that you cannot see.

Is this a cleverly disguised manipulation thread? Claim there is something strange happening with megacyte at 2803 and tell people to test it. However, to test it they need to buy up all megacyte under 2803...

I was only joking. I knew that wasn't your goal.




Sales are going well.

I'm fairly sure I ruled out all those things but you can never be 100% sure after the event. Doubt always creeps in.

A year ago I had to change how I tried to push the price up as this would occur about 5 out of 8 times when attempting to manipulate the large volume core items. At the time I felt It was likely triggered by removing too many sell orders or pushing to high (likely a combination of both) It felt like a formula to me and was catching me out far to often to be coincidental. I never traced it down because it forced me to change my whole way of doing things (smaller steps) so it didn't occur. I was sure it was a form of market protection as it only occurred when I did it in very aggressive way. Felt it was there to stop people crying about obvious manipulations etc and a way to dump more stock into the game to help keep the price down and make the manipulator fail. It definitely caused me a lot of issues.

This time I bothered tracking down the price that the orders began to work again (they were working at first at the high value) and it was exactly +18%. A bit odd as if was from caused by a random invisible order placed say 90 days ago. I will check this %figure again when it happens next time as it will if I am not careful. I will check if it is whole number. I remember from the past it was a combination of things together that seemed to encourage it to happen.

Some things I noticed which was consistent with this issue
- It only ever happens in jita. 95% of my trades and 99% of my orders where carried out in domain and It never happened once in Domain. (Note that you cant manipulate large items without including Jita. It sets the price. Hence it is a good place to place any controls on the market.)
- It only happens on large volume core items that don't have large daily swings.
- It only happens when you buyout a lot of sell orders. I never had it happen when helping someone else continue to buy out a item and push it up more with only moderate removal of player items. (I wanted to one day test if I could prevent it by using multiple character to buy up items but that would only prove it can cause it and not that it actually prevents it.)
- It only happens when you are aggressively manipulating an item by buying out a lot of sell orders. (this is why the expired order theory was accepted as the reason in the past) I however have never seen an expired order when studying the item and I keep an eye on this as a possible risk to attempting these types of trades.
- The character that sells the goods has always come from an NPC corp and has never left. So take notice of the character that is receiving the isk when you buy from this invisible order.

Anyway if someone notices that any of the above statement didn't hold for them feel free to post here. It would be interesting to know.


I'm not sure how long I will be around. I'm just back to sell off some investments and buy some new ones. I have been back a month and probably stay for another month. I just don't have the time to play the massive hours that I did years ago while working from home and addicted to eve.

yeah the statement was a bit abstract.
I meant I check during the days leading up to a big item buy out. It originally was such a thorn in my side that I spent a lot of time trying to work out why was happening so often. It once happened 8 manipulation attempts in a row... I almost gave up on jita. Hence why I looked out for orders that were to expire in the days leading up to my buy up. I also used eve central market log backups a couple of times and couldn't find any Jita orders due to expire in the previous days.

I found it strange I never had it happen anywhere apart from Jita and I would have had at least 100k individual orders over the years within Domain. I would be lucky to have had maybe 5-7k orders in jita. Whether it is a bug or not it only happens when forcing prices and trying to push the market around. Which is suspicious in itself.


I'm not too concerned these days as I learnt what I can get away with and what I cant. Basically not being as aggressive and taking multiple days dropped the odds of it happening from about 75% at its worse down to maybe 1 in 50. It only happened this time because I was aggressive, having fun, buying more than I should and In a hurry.


Tin foil stuff I know, but that is half the fun. These forums are popular that someone will point out if it was different for them. I will be surprised if players have experienced this issue with items that are not selling way above the regional average. So let us know


Cheers

The FW LP thing was exploiting changes and game mechanics that where not expected. It should have been reported not abused from what I read.

One thing you learn in eve when trading is that you can never reset a price much higher/lower for long unless it is already moving in that direction. You can only help it get there a bit quicker. Simple Supply and demand forces will always win out. Yes you can spend and spend to push prices higher but as soon as you stop buying the market will drop quickly if you are wrong or are just to early. If you attempt to try and sell the stock back into the market the price will also fall like a rock. The price has to stabilize for along time before you have any hope selling large amounts of the stock back to the market on these larger items. That or sell into a market frenzy. This is all normal market behavior and buying and selling is part of the game and encourage. It is what eve is about, the power of nations.. Some people play pvp with ships others play pvp with markets. Markets are more of a challenge.

Payoffs as a percentage is crap but on large volumes of idle isk it is one of the few options left for making isk in the latter part of a players game.

This thread is a bit confusing at best..

If you think there is an actual problem or "conspiracy" I suggest you stream record exactly what your talking about, and then let people see it in action. This would reduce any confusion and make it a lot easier to comment on..

Also I assume you have your trade skills maxed out, and this is not some range and visibility problem?

There are most likely still "holes" in that code that players can and are abusing, but I dont see why ccp would have any interest in disrupting the free economy in this manner, when they have not done so in others much more relevant..

Ive run into the "invisible sell order" issue too. Once I was in great need of POS fuel so I went to Amarr and started buying. One order would not clear when I bought from it. So I kept buying until I had what I needed. It looked to me like I got off cheap as I bought all I wanted from a order that would not go away, rather than having to buy from still higher priced orders.

So I petitioned it, just in case I was taking advantage of bug. I was assured it was not a bug or exploit.