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A Soloist's Dilemma
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Van Ketris
Elusive Dilemma
#1 - 2013-04-20 17:49:36 UTC
Alright, so this post is purely to see what other people's point of view and take is. To see if I'm alone, or one of many, and to see if any collective brainstorming helps me come up with some new idea's. First a bit of background....

I'm an experienced pvp'er and FC, but as always have plenty to learn and build upon. I've spent a lot of time in Nullsec, with nulli secunda, and some time black ops dropping with DNS. The group names aside, it's left me with experience in many different area's, and I've delved on my own into WH's, solo pvp, multi boxing, and so forth. I've always come back to WH's over and over, though I've only lived in them for a month or two at a time. I enjoy the pvp that you can find there, but regret that it's more difficult to find. Now to the problems.....

I am just fine on my own in the gameplay arena. I don't need anyone else to accomplish what I want, but I wouldn't mind having opportunities to group with others now and then, or lead things that require more than myself to do properly. There's of course the bonus of being protected by being associated with others, but I honestly am less worried about that, and more interested in being able to go help protect others for the fun of it. There doesn't really seem to be many groups or alliances that do this sort of thing. I know they probably exist, but many frown upon me for being in a one man corp.

The other angle is that it's just socially boring to be solo all the time. It's nice to have people to talk to, even if you never really see them in game. But as we all know, if you are chatting it up in TS, or in chat channels, you will inevitably find a way to get together and do something now and then.

I probably don't have to tell you all, but of course having friends/allies in WH's present problems related to being cut off from eachother. There are the solutions that most are aware of, including getting to k-space, then connecting to theirs. Time consuming but do-able. However, that's not very viable for quick/fun things as much as important pre-planned events or defense.

Finally, I personally can run C4 as my maximum, cannot do radar/mag in c4 unless I really bling out my ships. C3 is easy for me, but still good isk. I have tried c3 with nullsec for plexing/pvp. I've tried c3 w/ c3, and c4 w/ c3. I lived in a c5 w/ c4 with wormhole engineers. So on the pve side, I've found aiming for c3 is probably ideal, but I debate going for c4 at times, but I think the negatives of c4 hunting/farming outweigh the benefits. I like living in c4 as it helps keep caps from messing with me, and lets me use them to more advantage if I decide to.

Are there more of you doing this? Not just solo, but small group. How do you deal with loneliness, defense, co-ordinating connecting with people from a different WH, and making it work in general? How does class/static help or hurt you? Are there any ship fits/combo's that you want to share for multi boxing pvp unique to WH? I want to see your thoughts.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-04-20 20:16:05 UTC
Hi,

We're a little larger than you're describing now, but when I first started Heaven's End it was just me and my first officer. We found the trick was to find a carebear alliance or corp and move in with them (keeping our own corp and tower). The mutual defense was beneficial to them because they were terrible at PVP and it gave us somebody to chat to about w-space stuff.

It sounds like you're most comfortable in C3 sites, but these are also one of the most "patrolled" areas because of the ease of solo farming. So I'd suggest doing C4s if you can. There's plenty of C4/C1s that are empty because it's not a very desirable static, so they'd be easy to solo live in. You could also try to find a somewhat "bad at PVP" corp living in a C4/C3 or a C2/C3 and seeing if you can negotiate living alongside them without necessarily having to be in their corp. Most will be resistant to this because they expect you to be a spy or to try to screw them over in some way.

If you're really into C3s, there are LOTS of empty C3/Low-sec wormholes. The static isn't great for logistics, but there are lots of K162s popping into C3s regularly. You could safely drop a medium or large tower and never be bothered if you properly set up the defenses. Try to pick one where the Planetary Interaction has stuff that you want but not everything, as this makes it more desirable and more difficult to defend.


Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Fireflynine
Wormhole Exploration And Production
#3 - 2013-04-20 20:56:12 UTC
Van I love you
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#4 - 2013-04-21 01:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Garresh
Something I've always wanted to try(But never fully had the balls for) was to run a nomadic w-space operation. Basically you'd need 2-4 accounts, with 1-2 orcas(with cloaks) loaded with a scanship, a T3 for clearing sites, which is capable of being refit for PvP(you'd need to be flexible with your subsystems, at it would not be ideal for either), a stealth bomber for targeting miners, and some refits for gas cloud harvesting if you're into that, a salvage ship(ideally a ninja salvage frigate to quickly raid enemy sites if you're outnumbered...because it's funny), and a scout alt.

If you wanna do something social, imagine wandering through w-space targetting some, and perhaps trying to make friends with others. If not for the fuel changes to towers, you could also do the "pos in a box" strategy as well. You still can do it, but it's not ideal. Obviously this takes a massive commitment and is incredibly risky. I've actually done this strategy purely in the short term. Back when I ran a solo w-space operation, with one additional friend I invited, we would occasionally find a really nice C3 that was uninhabited wtih a lowsec/nullsec static. We'd make sure our fuel levels were good, recall our scouts back to the home base, then launch a mobile command structure in 2 orcas, and spend the next week clearing out a C3 for like a couple billion. When we were done, we'd find a route to highsec, bring the orcas home, offload all our ribbons, and then return to our home base. If we encountered hostiles, we pulled our stealth bombers out and deal with them.

So this idea works...but I've never actually done it long term. Might be interesting.

Edit: I'm not actually editing my post, but I just want to say that my post above is why you shouldn't drink and post. Holy **** my grammar is bad.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Styledatol
Stellar Forge Industries
#5 - 2013-04-21 01:19:41 UTC
There was a group of irl friends that used to do it, actually.
They'd move into a system, setup shop and pve/pvp in it for a week or two.
Then they'd all pack up, jump into another wh, and setup there.

Course it was easy since they were all irl friends, and it was easy to organize it.
With that said, doing it solo is doable, if a bit difficult, and boring?
Van Ketris
Elusive Dilemma
#6 - 2013-04-21 03:24:28 UTC
Fireflynine wrote:
Van I love you


Aww fire, I miss you!
Van Ketris
Elusive Dilemma
#7 - 2013-04-21 03:28:09 UTC
Garresh wrote:
Something I've always wanted to try(But never fully had the balls for) was to run a nomadic w-space operation. Basically you'd need 2-4 accounts, with 1-2 orcas(with cloaks) loaded with a scanship, a T3 for clearing sites, which is capable of being refit for PvP(you'd need to be flexible with your subsystems, at it would not be ideal for either), a stealth bomber for targeting miners, and some refits for gas cloud harvesting if you're into that, a salvage ship(ideally a ninja salvage frigate to quickly raid enemy sites if you're outnumbered...because it's funny), and a scout alt.

If you wanna do something social, imagine wandering through w-space targetting some, and perhaps trying to make friends with others. If not for the fuel changes to towers, you could also do the "pos in a box" strategy as well. You still can do it, but it's not ideal. Obviously this takes a massive commitment and is incredibly risky. I've actually done this strategy purely in the short term. Back when I ran a solo w-space operation, with one additional friend I invited, we would occasionally find a really nice C3 that was uninhabited wtih a lowsec/nullsec static. We'd make sure our fuel levels were good, recall our scouts back to the home base, then launch a mobile command structure in 2 orcas, and spend the next week clearing out a C3 for like a couple billion. When we were done, we'd find a route to highsec, bring the orcas home, offload all our ribbons, and then return to our home base. If we encountered hostiles, we pulled our stealth bombers out and deal with them.

So this idea works...but I've never actually done it long term. Might be interesting.

Edit: I'm not actually editing my post, but I just want to say that my post above is why you shouldn't drink and post. Holy **** my grammar is bad.



Yeah this idea is probably something I'd categorize as more interesting on paper than in execution. The only reason for that is that having a static is what makes wh's easier, and makes life simpler. I've done alot of scanning from within low-sec pockets and what not, and seeing what there was WH related to do, and it's gotten me good farming sessions and pvp situations...but nothing like the reliability and flexibility of having your own static to roll. I guess you could stay put within a wh for the static, but if your whole life is in the orca's, that's much more of a risk to roll holes.
Nox Arnoux
Black Omega Security
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#8 - 2013-04-21 04:56:15 UTC
If you're soloing, I wouldn't recommend living in any given wormhole. Base yourself out of lowsec/highsec, ideally somewhere deserted with minimal traffic. From there, scan your surrounding pockets for wormholes that you can dive into. I find that people living in C3s rarely expect a gank to come from their kspace static, and you can leverage that to your advantage. Living by yourself in a wormhole creates a lot of unnecessary logistics work, and if you don't have an efficient way to roll your static then your engagement zones are extremely limited.

If you're dead set on living in a wormhole, C2 with static high and 3 is probably your best option. The highsec makes logistics very easy and the C3 allows you to dive deeper for targets as well as more isk making opportunities. Unfortunately almost all C2s are occupied at this point, so you might want to buy an ideal system off wormholesales dot com.

My favorite solo dualbox setup is a cloaky scanning proteus with a pilgrim. With proper fits and some cheap implants you would have about 800 dps at your disposal along with very powerful neuts, tracking disruptor, as well as covert cloaks and combat scanning. Any other T3 wouldn't come close to a proteus' dps, and when soloing you want as much dps as you can get your hands on in as few ships as possible. The pilgrim gives you the option of engaging groups larger than yourself and still come out victorious, as long as you don't bite off more than you can chew and correctly shutdown your biggest threats before they have a chance to hurt you.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-04-21 05:09:54 UTC
EVE is a multiplayer game and WHs are probably the most multiplayer area of that game.
If you really wanna take part in WHs, youre gonna need to join a corp.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#10 - 2013-04-21 05:28:02 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
EVE is a multiplayer game and WHs are probably the most multiplayer area of that game.
If you really wanna take part in WHs, youre gonna need to join a corp.


Dead wrong. I and many other have run w-space solo ops for *years*. Obviously to get the most out of w-space requires cooperation, but solo w-space is not just doable, but actually quite common.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Sushi Nardieu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-04-21 05:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sushi Nardieu
I do a lot of the stuff you speak of. (PVP related) I do not live in wormhole space anymore but still do wormhole operations and diving. The kind of things you speak of do not require you to live in a wormhole system but it would not be the worst idea.

IMO, if you like to look around for wormholes you could live in k-space and just dive into wormholes. In theory, you could cover more wormhole chains rather than limit yourself to the one that your home is connected to. The other benefit is that you don't limit yourself to wormhole pvp but have the option of other kinds as well.

Matters related to isk, I suggest you investigate the expo style of pve. Concentrated PvE in a wormhole for a set amount of days with a temporary POS. The scope of your PvE is left to your decision.

I find myself soloing (multibox) a lot or duoing at the most. Targets are rare in wormhole space compared to k-space but they can be some of the most expensive at the same time. There is a degree of luck involved. Sometimes your combat probing can be perfection but the targets still escape! But that is EVE.

I commend your activities.

You do need to join a corp. You will find that there are very few good pvpers in wormhole space simply because they live in wormhole space. That does not mean they are not out there, you'll just have to look that much harder.

Good luck!

The Guns of Knowledge 
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-04-21 09:43:50 UTC
Garresh wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
EVE is a multiplayer game and WHs are probably the most multiplayer area of that game.
If you really wanna take part in WHs, youre gonna need to join a corp.

Dead wrong. I and many other have run w-space solo ops for *years*. Obviously to get the most out of w-space requires cooperation, but solo w-space is not just doable, but actually quite common.

i didnt say you cant run whs solo, but doing so and saying youre doing WHs is like running L1 missions and calling yourself a missioner.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Van Ketris
Elusive Dilemma
#13 - 2013-04-21 09:49:46 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Garresh wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
EVE is a multiplayer game and WHs are probably the most multiplayer area of that game.
If you really wanna take part in WHs, youre gonna need to join a corp.

Dead wrong. I and many other have run w-space solo ops for *years*. Obviously to get the most out of w-space requires cooperation, but solo w-space is not just doable, but actually quite common.

i didnt say you cant run whs solo, but doing so and saying youre doing WHs is like running L1 missions and calling yourself a missioner.


No mate, that's not even close. I can make over a billion easily clearing out a c3 in 5 hours or so when i find a decent one. It's not only fast and efficient pve, but it's easy.

For pvp, no matter the terrain you can accomplish things by yourself, and wh's are less likely to blob the heck out of you than anywhere else.

It's actually an arena more suited to solo/multi boxing than anywhere else in eve. The c5's and c6's might be nice isk overall, but the fact that they require and are used by larger groups means that reward is being split amongst more people. Solo'ing a c3 or c4 is very similiar isk/hour for each individual. Especially when you consider the ability to roll the hole for another one when dried up.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#14 - 2013-04-21 10:37:04 UTC
Afaik you're potentially missing out on a lot of the pvp by restricting yourself to solo, however - especially in c4 and below, a boost-alt might level many differences and give you a good basis to engage lowclass-entities.

I haven't yet lived solo, however solo-pvp turned out to go mightily wrong (scout two proteus, engage two proteus with sleipnir, 7 more proteus and 3 lokis decloak and **** like that), also, without a HIC every nanoship crossjumps you on a hole and warps off before you lock him :S

There are inbuilt difficulties, but the honorable solo-dweller is something I'd cheerish a lot. I mean it takes so much balls :D

A recent very enjoyable trend is more and more c2/c3 entities actually fighting, no clue if anyone else noticed. I even lack he names, but recently diving in there with 1-2 active tanked ships makes up for awesome fights against some of those newer dwellers. I'd say Van's pvp-oppurtuities are alll out there!

Again, good luck with your endeavours. Also I'd recommend a c2 static c5/null. Cause null.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-04-21 10:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Van Ketris wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Garresh wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
EVE is a multiplayer game and WHs are probably the most multiplayer area of that game.
If you really wanna take part in WHs, youre gonna need to join a corp.

Dead wrong. I and many other have run w-space solo ops for *years*. Obviously to get the most out of w-space requires cooperation, but solo w-space is not just doable, but actually quite common.

i didnt say you cant run whs solo, but doing so and saying youre doing WHs is like running L1 missions and calling yourself a missioner.

No mate, that's not even close. I can make over a billion easily clearing out a c3 in 5 hours or so when i find a decent one. It's not only fast and efficient pve, but it's easy.
For pvp, no matter the terrain you can accomplish things by yourself, and wh's are less likely to blob the heck out of you than anywhere else.
It's actually an arena more suited to solo/multi boxing than anywhere else in eve. The c5's and c6's might be nice isk overall, but the fact that they require and are used by larger groups means that reward is being split amongst more people. Solo'ing a c3 or c4 is very similiar isk/hour for each individual. Especially when you consider the ability to roll the hole for another one when dried up.

a bil in 5 hours? sure, that's not bad.
i mean you know, c5-6 sites run at 700-750mil in 10 minutes between 5 active ships so even assuming no alts it's more than 4 times more than youre making in a c3 but sure, a bil in 5 hours is ok...

as for PVP, yeah, you can run around in WHs in a solo cloaky T3 and you might gank the occasional hauler, mining ship or drake running C2s but that's really about it solo wise.
As for the blobing, sure, youre not going to get ganked by 50 guys in drakes like in nullsec by people who PVP in WHs VERY rarely do so alone and if youre solo, anything more than 1-2 ships will be enough to gank your ass.

look, if you want to play a single player game, why even bother playing a game that is by definition designed to be played with other people?

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#16 - 2013-04-21 16:04:45 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:

a bil in 5 hours? sure, that's not bad.
i mean you know, c5-6 sites run at 700-750mil in 10 minutes between 5 active ships so even assuming no alts it's more than 4 times more than youre making in a c3 but sure, a bil in 5 hours is ok...



If it took me 5 hours to make a bill I would cry. If you are doing it right you should be measuring billions per hour, not hours per billion. Hours per billion is like making minimum wage in China and then bragging about a big paycheck.


Jack Milton wrote:


As for the blobing, sure, youre not going to get ganked by 50 guys in drakes like in nullsec ......


Well..... if you run into us you might. But hey, whatever works right.
Sushi Nardieu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-04-21 16:22:31 UTC
chris elliot wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

a bil in 5 hours? sure, that's not bad.
i mean you know, c5-6 sites run at 700-750mil in 10 minutes between 5 active ships so even assuming no alts it's more than 4 times more than youre making in a c3 but sure, a bil in 5 hours is ok...



If it took me 5 hours to make a bill I would cry. If you are doing it right you should be measuring billions per hour, not hours per billion. Hours per billion is like making minimum wage in China and then bragging about a big paycheck.



Wow!

The Guns of Knowledge 
Van Ketris
Elusive Dilemma
#18 - 2013-04-21 19:08:15 UTC
Two things. The isk generation of billions per hour is only attainable in c6, and maybe c5's with the right setup, and only having a couple of guys run several chars. Both of those situations require a commitment to a group in those area's, which means you are sharing when to roll holes, when to leave open for someone who wants route to k-space, or who wants to pve, or pvp. Limiting what you can do, and when. Then there are the dynamics of finding a group you mesh with in both how you approach pve and pvp, and all aspects of your eve life since you are tied together far more than anywhere else in eve.

Not to mention, I would argue that in many cases while those isk numbers are attainable, it's less likely for you to be regularly reaching that as an individual, unless you are just in the perfect situation, without competition. I could be wrong, but I can see alot of potential problems in that area, where you all make it sound like you hop into a ship, make several billion an hour whenever you want.

As for the whole this is a multiplayer game angle, that is nonsense. First, I don't play this game single player, even if I play solo. I go solo, because I enjoy the challenge and freedom. Would I welcome a few guys who shared my mentality and increased my ability? Sure, but it's not easy to find necessarily. But no matter what we're talking about pvp against other players, that in itself makes it multiplayer gameplay.

It's also not a situation where 1-2 people can take me down regularly. I can run 2-3 characters as well as the average player can fly one, because I work at it. Will an above average, or even great pvp duo, with two real players top me? In many cases probably so, but that doesn't mean they'll kill/catch me, and it doesn't mean it won't be a fun challenge I could potentially win.

I made this post to hear idea's and concepts on how to make this area work, and I respect the opinions saying, it's not worth the effort, but I don't agree. I'm more than willing to combat for the other soloist's and small group guys who understand the benefits. I personally make it work decently well, and have not listed alot of my solutions to the above problems because I don't want to influence the responses.
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#19 - 2013-04-21 20:22:08 UTC
Not really, any c5+ can pull it off if you are aware of the mechanics that make it possible. Coincidentally the more people you have around the easier these mechanics become to be effective. With a larger group of people you can make a long snaking chain and have sites for people to do, null/lowsecs for people to roam, maybe the occasional highsec for new guys to move in or fuel to be run, but it does not take you all that long to do it.

The point of lamenting about grinding is that it detracts so much from the fun of the game and places the focus of your wh experience on something that is no harder than it is in empire space.

Why grind solo and "challenge" myself to make a pittance when I can either solo or with one maybe two other people bang through all the isk I need in an hour maybe two and then spend the rest of my playing week looking for null or lowsec exits with a pulse to go play in and find the actual "challenge" in the form of pvp. Log on, spend a ton of time for a little isk. Or log on, burn down a chain and grab one or two guys and go for a roam and get laughs and have fun..... hmmmm leme see which one I would rather spend my evenings doing.

Will I ever get super spacerich my way? No, but I don't really care because I am not after a fat wallet. I am after enjoyment, so the less time I waste in sleeper sites the better.

You do not need super elaborate setups to make more than enough isk in wh's to do things. You just need to know how to do it efficiently so you spend the least time doing it.
Van Ketris
Elusive Dilemma
#20 - 2013-04-21 20:40:54 UTC
chris elliot wrote:
Not really, any c5+ can pull it off if you are aware of the mechanics that make it possible. Coincidentally the more people you have around the easier these mechanics become to be effective. With a larger group of people you can make a long snaking chain and have sites for people to do, null/lowsecs for people to roam, maybe the occasional highsec for new guys to move in or fuel to be run, but it does not take you all that long to do it.

The point of lamenting about grinding is that it detracts so much from the fun of the game and places the focus of your wh experience on something that is no harder than it is in empire space.

Why grind solo and "challenge" myself to make a pittance when I can either solo or with one maybe two other people bang through all the isk I need in an hour maybe two and then spend the rest of my playing week looking for null or lowsec exits with a pulse to go play in and find the actual "challenge" in the form of pvp. Log on, spend a ton of time for a little isk. Or log on, burn down a chain and grab one or two guys and go for a roam and get laughs and have fun..... hmmmm leme see which one I would rather spend my evenings doing.

Will I ever get super spacerich my way? No, but I don't really care because I am not after a fat wallet. I am after enjoyment, so the less time I waste in sleeper sites the better.

You do not need super elaborate setups to make more than enough isk in wh's to do things. You just need to know how to do it efficiently so you spend the least time doing it.



I like the way you put this. That is actually a concept I hadn't fully considered, the idea of building the chain you want. My time in C5 we only rolled our own static, not statics from that. Would you mind elaborating on some of the things you mentioned?

My biggest problem with living with other groups in wh's is that I DESPISE downtime. I work pretty hard to be self sufficient enough to never hit a situation where I can't do something. The long chain with all options idea is interesting. I suppose it involves rolling not just your static, but the statics beyond, to get the chain you want, for that day?

Then in terms of c5 farming, my only experience is using caps in a home system. I assume you can do them without caps, or with 1 cap in adjacent wh's, but if you wanted to give quick info on how that works, I wouldn't mind hearing it. I certainly understand the concept of better isk/hour being ideal, even if it's similiar total isk over a week or 2 week period based on site availability or what not. My prime argument against that is that it require joining groups which cost you in other area's.
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