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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Hannibal Ord
Fer-De-Lance
#61 - 2011-11-01 16:35:18 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hannibal Ord wrote:

When I look at Long range weapons I look at 100km + for mediums and 150+ for large weapons. You seem to think that anything above point range it long range.

35-60 is where most fights get maneuvered to. Warp to/Probe Mechanics make it to hard to keep a fight out at those ranges and the enemy from escaping.

Hannibal Ord wrote:

Basically you are asking for a Scorch nerf, when it shares such similar properties to Barrage. I will agree Beams need something to balance themselves against Arties, but if you nerf Scorch well we should also nerf Barrage. If we make everything nice and close range that's fine, and blasters will just then **** all over both weapon systems again.

Never said nerf Barrage directly. I would however say Nerf Large Barrage and Large Scorch and keep medium Scorch and Barrage the way they are.

That along with buffing Medium LR Weapons would great in my books.



Then are asking really for a mechanics of game change. Most fights do happen between 15-60, which from my point of view is close range only. And it's here why blasters are so outclassed because their vision of short range is basically 0-20km. Both Minmatar and Amarr (and Caldari with missiles) are fine in this 15-60 envelope. But LR generally is looked upon being 100KM plus (for Sniper HACS) and 100KM-200KM for Sniper BS. The problems at these ranges are a recent occurrence because of ease of probing mechanics. Before the changes to probing, 150km was a very typical fighting range.
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#62 - 2011-11-01 16:36:00 UTC
Buff Hybrids & Missles, and make them the same quality as lasers & Projectiles. Nerfing isn't the be-all-end-all of game balancing, as most of the people here seem to think.

Also, making one weapon system weaker while simultaneously making other ones stronger is absolutely, abjectly stupid.

The pie is a tautology
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2011-11-01 16:36:25 UTC
balance

hmm

hmm

just remove every ship every weapon system all ammo all modules ..

make one ship with F1-F4 prefitted .. there you go you got balance, welcome to street fighter series EVE.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#64 - 2011-11-01 16:39:42 UTC
Zagam wrote:
I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!

Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.).
Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.

This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension.


A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#65 - 2011-11-01 16:40:23 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Lharanai wrote:
and what about us poor Amarr?
Won't somebody please think of the children!?!


I'm sure CCP can give some tender and loving nerfbat action to the Amarr too, if you really want it so badly.


.... i will kill you both.
Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#66 - 2011-11-01 16:40:30 UTC
nerf yo face biatch

MINMATAR $ LIFE

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#67 - 2011-11-01 16:42:30 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Zagam wrote:
I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!

Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.).
Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.

This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension.


A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention.


From all I've seen, Minmatar ships are just as common as Caldari & Amarr ones, and slightly more common than Gallente.

Seriously, any semblance of tactics or use of intelligence can defeat a "Winmatar" just as easily as any Caldari or Amarr ship.

The pie is a tautology
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#68 - 2011-11-01 16:48:21 UTC
Paragon Renegade wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Zagam wrote:
I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!

Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.).
Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.

This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension.


A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention.


From all I've seen, Minmatar ships are just as common as Caldari & Amarr ones, and slightly more common than Gallente.

Seriously, any semblance of tactics or use of intelligence can defeat a "Winmatar" just as easily as any Caldari or Amarr ship.


I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most.
Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2011-11-01 16:55:26 UTC
Most likely OP is a bad pilot.

Minmatar ships have the lowest tank and are the hardest to fly, they ONLY work if you calculate the correct range for this particular enemy and HOLD that range while you kill the enemy.

OP most likely has no idea how to fly minmatar himself, can't do it so now he wants to nerf it because much better pilots can defeat him using it.

Deal with it, a better pilot will defeat you no matter what he is flying really, work out how to defeat minmatar and play to that advantage.

HINT: A minmatar ship that can't manuver easily (web, scram) is a dead minmatar ship against any equal foe. Its only their greater agility that allow them to stand a chance.

-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more) 
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#70 - 2011-11-01 16:59:18 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most.


Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis..........

wut

Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered

The pie is a tautology
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2011-11-01 17:03:36 UTC
Paragon Renegade wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most.


Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis..........

wut

Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered



Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 933
2 Hurricane 878
3 Dramiel 378
4 Cynabal 287
5 Harbinger 268
6 Sabre 248
7 Tengu 246
8 Manticore 233
9 Vagabond 224
10 Loki 188
11 Rapier 177
12 Machariel 173
13 Capsule 156
14 Hound 155
15 Rifter 127
16 Tempest 110
17 Zealot 110
18 Falcon 105
19 Armageddon 101
20 Abaddon 95

....and methinks you have a different idea of optimal, AC's have shorter optimals than blasters....by half. Matar have falloff for days though.
Alara IonStorm
#72 - 2011-11-01 17:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Paragon Renegade wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most.


Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis..........

wut

Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered

Said PvP ships that are used the most, not the ones you wish were used the most.

Hurricane, Drake, Abbadon, Maelstrom, Vagabond, Cynabal, Zealot, Dramiel, Hound, Tengu, Armageddon, Tempest..........

These ships are the most prominent on the top ten. The ones you listed are ok but not all that great.
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#73 - 2011-11-01 17:07:20 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
[quote=Paragon Renegade]

Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis..........
These ships are the most prominent on the top ten. The ones you listed are ok but not all that great.


Taranis' kick ass :3

But I just listed the ones I've seen the most, to illustrate the point that the preponderance of Minmatar is not nearly as large as one thinks. Minmatar ships are easy to use well, but really difficult to use exceptionally well. Don't confuse being versatile with being above & beyond.

The pie is a tautology
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2011-11-01 17:08:25 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Paragon Renegade wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most.


Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis..........

wut

Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered



Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 933
2 Hurricane 878
3 Dramiel 378
4 Cynabal 287
5 Harbinger 268
6 Sabre 248
7 Tengu 246
8 Manticore 233
9 Vagabond 224
10 Loki 188
11 Rapier 177
12 Machariel 173
13 Capsule 156
14 Hound 155
15 Rifter 127
16 Tempest 110
17 Zealot 110
18 Falcon 105
19 Armageddon 101
20 Abaddon 95

....and methinks you have a different idea of optimal, AC's have shorter optimals than blasters....by half. Matar have falloff for days though.



Nerf the Capsule its being used too much. Really ...

All those statistic you can scrap prove nothing at all. If we talking about PvP, it depends on fleet composition and purpose of such fleet than you chose ships for it.

Dominixes are not that bad last time i checked, however you will hardly use them in massive fleet engagements.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2011-11-01 17:10:56 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Paragon Renegade wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most.


Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis..........

wut

Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered



Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 933
2 Hurricane 878
3 Dramiel 378
4 Cynabal 287
5 Harbinger 268
6 Sabre 248
7 Tengu 246
8 Manticore 233
9 Vagabond 224
10 Loki 188
11 Rapier 177
12 Machariel 173
13 Capsule 156
14 Hound 155
15 Rifter 127
16 Tempest 110
17 Zealot 110
18 Falcon 105
19 Armageddon 101
20 Abaddon 95

....and methinks you have a different idea of optimal, AC's have shorter optimals than blasters....by half. Matar have falloff for days though.



Nerf the Capsule its being used too much. Really ...

All those statistic you can scrap prove nothing at all. If we talking about PvP, it depends on fleet composition and purpose of such fleet than you chose ships for it.

Dominixes are not that bad last time i checked, however you will hardly use them in massive fleet engagements.



I dunno, in my neck of low-sec its almost exactly what eve-kills says.

Drakes, Canes, Rifters, Cyna's Vaga, snipe macks nano-pests and the occasional PL bait maller...that we align blow to hell, and dodge the incoming super blob.
Alara IonStorm
#76 - 2011-11-01 17:11:47 UTC
Paragon Renegade wrote:

But I just listed the ones I've seen the most, to illustrate the point that the preponderance of Minmatar is not nearly as large as one thinks. Minmatar ships are easy to use well, but really difficult to use exceptionally well. Don't confuse being versatile with being above & beyond.

Point out the Ship that uses Hybrids or the Amarr Ship that does not need Scorch to be on that list.

Bombs
Autocannons
Scorch(Not Lasers, Scorch)
Heavy Missiles
Artillery

= Balance
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#77 - 2011-11-01 17:13:41 UTC
Onictus wrote:

I dunno, in my neck of low-sec its almost exactly what eve-kills says.

Drakes, Canes, Rifters, Cyna's Vaga, snipe macks nano-pests and the occasional PL bait maller...that we align blow to hell, and dodge the incoming super blob.


Now, just to clarify a point; I'd like if the other factions were beefed-up a bit, which they're doing in the winter anyway. My stance is that nerfing the minmatar ships so close to the update would be a short-sighted decision & a bad move.

:3

The pie is a tautology
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#78 - 2011-11-01 17:15:22 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
[quote=Paragon Renegade]
Point out the Ship that uses Hybrids or the Amarr Ship that does not need Scorch to be on that list.

Bombs
Autocannons
Scorch(Not Lasers, Scorch)
Heavy Missiles
Artillery

= Balance


I don't recall saying the other races didn't need to be looked at.

The pie is a tautology
Alara IonStorm
#79 - 2011-11-01 17:16:36 UTC
Paragon Renegade wrote:

I don't recall saying the other races didn't need to be looked at.

Start with 1400mm Artillery and L Scorch.
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#80 - 2011-11-01 17:18:26 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Paragon Renegade wrote:

I don't recall saying the other races didn't need to be looked at.

Start with 1400mm Artillery and L Scorch.


Is there a disagreemnet here? I sure as hell don't see one.

The pie is a tautology