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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

First post First post
Author
Cross Barret
Pod or be Podded
#681 - 2013-04-20 12:22:22 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
is cache scraping what evemon does when it 'sends market data from your eve installation cache to online endpoints'?


Yes


We are looking for cheaters, hackers, botters and the likes. We are not looking for EVEMON users. Basically, please don't worry.


And how will you tell the difference between an EVEMON user that you are 'not looking for' and an evil botter?

There is no difference. It is totally unenforceable. So why ban it?


I don't know where you got that from, but we can tell the difference between a bot and a legitimate player.

Cache scraping can be used for botting purposes, in which case we will action against it. EVEMon clearly isn't botting software.


This comment is troubling because either you haven't thought this through or you take your player base for idiots...If you have no problem telling the difference between bots and those that use cache scraping "legitimately", then there is absolutely no reason to explicitly make scraping against the EULA. If you find someone botting, ban them. That is already against the EULA. Why would you need a second reason??? The only reason to make such a change is to have a reason to ban people that you can't tell are botting, but you think they may be. If this is the case, then, as mentioned, you can't tell the difference between an evemon user and a botter. I encourage a strong stance against bots, but with this change you take us for morons if you tell us, 'well, we can already tell the difference we just need two reasons to ban them'. Well, to that I say, three reasons would be even better, so lets make mining against the EULA, but not enforce penalties against legitimate miners so you have three reasons.

Quite frankly, Im offended and it sounds like a few others are as well.
Phobos Saitan
Freiwerk
#682 - 2013-04-20 13:24:17 UTC
Sorry, what exactly means "CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware"?
What do you Monitor? the HDD? the RAM? and only the Gamefiles or everything on my PC?

I understand that it is necessary to do something against the Cheaters (botuser should be kicked in the balls all day..), but i don't want to anybody sniff around my System and maybe looking in Files that do not concern them.

And yes, i'm paranoid.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#683 - 2013-04-20 14:42:56 UTC
Good job CCP. Now ban all cheaters.

The Tears Must Flow

Estrelita Nobunaga
Doomheim
#684 - 2013-04-20 15:15:32 UTC
I don't use many 3rd party apps. EveMon and, occasionally, EFT right now.

I just shut off the market data upload function of EveMon, just to be safe.

Here's my concern: I never turned it on. I started seeing the added text on the status bar a while back, but didn't think much about it. I assume it was installed by some upgrade a while back, and defaulted to being on. I never had any idea that it was a data scraper, good or bad.

I guess this is another indication that I need to be more careful about what I install. Since I don't use 3rd party apps very much, things like this are not a big problem for me, but a lot of people install 3rd party apps all the time, if only to see what they do, or don't do. I would be willing to bet that many of these players don't read the complete technical specs on what they install, especially if the developer forgets to mention some added value feature. It seems to me that this could become a problem, even though CCP says that you need to do something bad with the application in order to get banned.

How do we really know what a 3rd party app will do unless we write it?

This is more of a concern because, until I got bored today, and decided to read the Dev Blog, I had never heard of data scraping, or, at least, had no idea what it was. ( I do seem to vaguely remember seeing the term in the EULA.) If I had not read the Dev Blog, and this thread, I would probably never have known what even the general rules on data scraping are, and that there are instances where data scraping can be used for bannable offenses.

I don't want to be banned. Especially for something I never turned on and never knew could be used for harmful purposes. I think that 3rd party devlopers need to work a little more closely with CCP, to avoid this kind of thing.
Estrelita Nobunaga
Doomheim
#685 - 2013-04-20 15:28:51 UTC
Coras Aldeland wrote:
And while your at it...

On a similar note, my old eyes have trouble distinguishing between the standard white icon color and the pale yellow used to indicate a gate/station/etc. indicated by the auto-pilot in the overview. Again I asked about changing it and was threatened with a ban hammer. Come on guys - there's a huge difference between minor aesthetic tweaks and running a bot!


I have the same problem. I've lost a few ships and a lot of time because of it.
Aineko Macx
#686 - 2013-04-20 16:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Aineko Macx
I'm actually impressed with how badly CCP is handling this from a PR perspective, basically spreading FUD around the use of their own product.

And banning (in uncertain terms) the only way to get market data out of eve without replacing it with something else, say a proper API, kills pretty much every market site and app there is.

GF CCP, GF!
Costigan Pheelan
SYNDAX CORPORATION
#687 - 2013-04-20 18:26:16 UTC
Quote:
Our EULA hasn't changed in this regard. This is the EULA we've always had. We have not outlawed cache scraping as of today. It has always been against our EULA. It's at our discretion as to enforcing it.

Team Security focuses on what we can do to stop macroing and RMT. That is where we will spend our time. So take that for what you want.


If the point of the original DevBlog was to say that you were looking in to clarifying the EULA's stance on Cache scraping for macroing and RMT, then I have to ask the question.....

Why the hell didn't the blog just say that and prevent all this mess.

Now we don't know if we will get permabanned for using tools that CCP has recommended in the past.

What a mess
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#688 - 2013-04-20 18:33:24 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
After consulting with CCP Legal........


That makes me wonder. Is there an actual character in-game called CCP Legal? If there is and if he/she/it took part in a dev caravan type of event, got killed and podded. How much would that corpse fetch for?

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.

Isarian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#689 - 2013-04-20 19:27:34 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Entity wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:

Please, consider the fact that cache scraping can be used for illegitimate purposes which are damaging to the overall health of the game,


Cars can be used to run over people. I don't see the government issuing blanket threats to car drivers.

Hi Entity! There are no blanket threats here, I'm sorry you see it that way.


Good job failing at understanding the definition of a blanket statement, CCP. There's no "Sorry you see it that way" here, CCP Peligro, this is a blanket threat that goes against explicit CCP positions in the past (see http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734561&page=1#9). You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts or definitions of words.
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#690 - 2013-04-20 20:20:47 UTC
Andski wrote:
DeODokktor wrote:
I am with you on this one.
I am sure a freighter going 35 jumps through empire, passing through gank systems, getting bumped by hundreds of ships, and taking several hours for it to happen causes a LOT less load than the trip happening in half an hour, with no players scanning the ship, with no other ships bumping into it, and no other ships having to constantly update cords of that freighter.

Of course WTZ uses more system resources....


And it's still a cheat. Stop trying to justify it, the players who used it were only temporarily banned for 30 days instead of the permanent ban that you normally get for code injection. If you got a 30 day on an account, take it in stride and stop cheating your way around limitations that the developers set for a reason.



Someone breaking the rules doesn't give Devs the option to make things up on a whim.

I never said it was okay, and if it was a client mod or stream injection then yea, ban.
Barzhad
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#691 - 2013-04-20 21:42:51 UTC
Phobos Saitan wrote:
Sorry, what exactly means "CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware"?
What do you Monitor? the HDD? the RAM? and only the Gamefiles or everything on my PC?

I understand that it is necessary to do something against the Cheaters (botuser should be kicked in the balls all day..), but i don't want to anybody sniff around my System and maybe looking in Files that do not concern them.

And yes, i'm paranoid.

What I think they will do is read the input from your mouse and compare it to the coordinates that the OS is reporting. if a bot moves the pointer while the mouse is idle it will flag for botting.
Eezee Gonozal
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#692 - 2013-04-20 22:08:56 UTC
X047 wrote:
Octoven wrote:
Over 2,000 players banned for using a script in their client? Good to know CCP has detection software sent from God, in my experience all technology is imperfect and at some point someone will get banned for a mis-interpreted detection. You cant tell me that every single account you banned this week had a hack software on their computer with 100% certainty, why? Inherently the more accounts you put into the mix, the greater the chance that the imperfection in the detection methods I spoke of will bleed through.


I can confirm this. I got hit with this carpet ban, and I have no hacks or client modifications. I petitioned it 2 days ago, and its still not fixed.... Very aggravating Evil


You waited only 2 days and are already complaining? The Ban petitions are obviously very low priority, because 99% of bans are perfectly legitimate and idiots will still petition it. I got a 14d ban last year and I got an apology + gametime nearly 4 weeks after I put in the petition.
Janusz Wojtynski
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#693 - 2013-04-20 22:30:48 UTC
AP0 it's just the media show before Fanfest ... and, in the 0.0 still are flying farm bots.
Why the CPP does not fight against this phenomenon?
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#694 - 2013-04-20 22:36:09 UTC
Phobos Saitan wrote:
Sorry, what exactly means "CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware"?
What do you Monitor? the HDD? the RAM? and only the Gamefiles or everything on my PC?

I understand that it is necessary to do something against the Cheaters (botuser should be kicked in the balls all day..), but i don't want to anybody sniff around my System and maybe looking in Files that do not concern them.

And yes, i'm paranoid.


You should be.

CCP seems to think 'Hey, EA can invade it's customers privacy under the guise of being protected under EULA, we should try to do the same. After all, we're in Iceland, those silly Consumer protection laws in most of Europe and the United States don't apply to us (but they do according to Iceland's trade treaty with the UK and Denmark) we can spy all we want with vague permissions buried someplace in the EULA.

What can go wrong?
alittlesnopy
AlterEGO's
#695 - 2013-04-21 00:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: alittlesnopy
This is another fail if 2,300 accounts modified their client a perma ban offense then perma ban them. I lost 4 billion isk worth of Gas and my friend hauling it lost a freighter 8k off the gate playing by the rules. Now you want to scan my computer what are you an American politician? Rewarding bad behavior cause you failed to enforce your rules, and then take from those that did play by the rules? One more straw I'm out of this game.

Before you scan my computer make the following changes.
1) AP warp to 0, is it not obvious we don't like it the current AP 2,300 people risked losing their chars. (stop wasting our time) ( this was my brothers son's reason he stopped playing to much time wasted getting from point a to b)
2) Activities like Hulkageddon ( it was allowed to eliminate bots right? or did you think we needed the grief?) would no longer be an asset to the game as there will not be bots in the game. So prohibit those activities. If you want to agress someone in high sec wardec them, or be Concorded before you can blow up someone else's ship in High sec.
3) Make insurance cover the cost of a new ship including T2 ships and you buy it once and the ship is covered for the life of the ship provided it does not change hands.
4) The bounty System has become stupid as my market alt has a bounty on him and has done nothing to anyone and can only fly a newb ship. To place a bounty on some one should require some sort of preliminary aggression by the one getting the bounty.


I PHP (Players Helping Players) in this game. I have been in this game for years with 3 paid for accounts and don't really care for PVP (i don't hold it against people who do) yet the game continually becomes more geared to PVP; in low sec and null that's expected and i'm happy it is there, But It has moved more and more into high sec and may be the reason subscriptions have not continued to increase as a newb has little time to enjoy and learn the game before being blown-up. And now there is no place to relax and let your guard down in the game. I know from experience as my brother quit playing due to being blown up several times in high sec.
Octoven
Noir Holdings
#696 - 2013-04-21 00:55:58 UTC
Eezee Gonozal wrote:
X047 wrote:
Octoven wrote:
Over 2,000 players banned for using a script in their client? Good to know CCP has detection software sent from God, in my experience all technology is imperfect and at some point someone will get banned for a mis-interpreted detection. You cant tell me that every single account you banned this week had a hack software on their computer with 100% certainty, why? Inherently the more accounts you put into the mix, the greater the chance that the imperfection in the detection methods I spoke of will bleed through.


I can confirm this. I got hit with this carpet ban, and I have no hacks or client modifications. I petitioned it 2 days ago, and its still not fixed.... Very aggravating Evil


You waited only 2 days and are already complaining? The Ban petitions are obviously very low priority, because 99% of bans are perfectly legitimate and idiots will still petition it. I got a 14d ban last year and I got an apology + gametime nearly 4 weeks after I put in the petition.


Did you also have a control tower out of fuel because of the ban?
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#697 - 2013-04-21 00:56:27 UTC
alittlesnopy wrote:
This is another fail if 2,300 accounts modified their client a perma ban offense then perma ban them. I lost 4 billion isk worth of Gas and my friend hauling it lost a freighter 8k off the gate playing by the rules. Now you want to scan my computer what are you an American politician? Rewarding bad behavior cause you failed to enforce your rules, and then take from those that did play by the rules? One more straw I'm out of this game.

Before you scan my computer make the following changes.
1) AP warp to 0, is it not obvious we don't like it the current AP 2,300 people risked losing their chars. (stop wasting our time) ( this was why my brothers son's reason he stopped playing to much time wasted getting from point a to b)
2) Activities like Hulkageddon ( it was allowed to eliminate bots right? or did you think we needed the grief?) would no longer be an asset to the game as there will not be bots in the game. So prohibit those activities. If you want to agress someone in high sec wardec them, or be Concorded before you can blow up someone else's ship in High sec.
3) Make insurance cover the cost of a new ship including T2 ships and you buy it once and the ship is covered for the life of the ship provided it does not change hands.
4) The bounty System has become stupid as my market alt has a bounty on him and has done nothing to anyone and can only fly a newb ship. To place a bounty on some one should require some sort of preliminary aggression by the one getting the bounty.


I PHP (Players Helping Players) in this game. I have been in this game for years with 3 paid for accounts and don't really care for PVP (i don't hold it against people who do) yet the game continually becomes more geared to PVP; in low sec and null that's expected and i'm happy it is there, But It has moved more and more into high sec and may be the reason subscriptions have not continued to increase as a newb has little time to enjoy and learn the game. And there is no place to relax and let your guard down in the game. I know from experience as my brother quit playing due to being blown up several times in high sec.

If you've really been in the game 3 years, then you know...
1. That if you weren't so lazy, you can warp to zero WITHOUT FAIL every single time, just by staying at your keyboard. Don't blame CCP for your lack of initiative.
2. CCP has no control over the Goons. It is the Goons that drive Hulkageddon and Burn Jita, and though it pains me to admit it, their shenanigans provide most of everything else that I find at least mildly amusing in this game anymore. I'm fairly certain the Goons lose several thousand rifters in the process, but compared to the damages and tears they harvest, well worth the sacrifice.
3. Insurance is only there to lessen the blow, not make you whole. What do you think this is, real life?
4. Why are you complaining? Your market alt apparently ticked someone off enough to score a bounty, one that will never be paid! I'd call that "winning"
Octoven
Noir Holdings
#698 - 2013-04-21 01:00:35 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:
Octoven wrote:


Which is why it was a mistake to get rid of the ban warning in favor of a 2 step approach. You get a 30 ban for doing something that until CCP decided was illegal was perfectly ok with them. You just never know, having the warning at least gives the player the ability to say ok....since you just recently decided to enforce that, then I can change my play style without having to lose 30 days.



No. The bans were for client injection. Modifying python code inside the client. If you don't know exactly what went on then you don't have to worry about it.


I know exactly what went on, but what you fail to realize is that when CCP does a mass ban like this, yes 90-99% of players have cheated and should be banned, but there is also that 1% chance the detection was in error and as a result the player who was banned for doing something that they havent done is both insulting to that person and an embarrassment on the company for not having looked into it instead of leaping before looking.

I dont care how good a software you claim to have regarding modification of the client, you WILL inadvertently ban someone who doesnt deserve it. If you happen to be in a small corp or running a tower by yourself in a wh then you are ****** because even if they lift the ban and apologize you will probably lose the thing and everything in it....of course it wont be replaced either.
Octoven
Noir Holdings
#699 - 2013-04-21 01:02:44 UTC
alittlesnopy wrote:
This is another fail if 2,300 accounts modified their client a perma ban offense then perma ban them. I lost 4 billion isk worth of Gas and my friend hauling it lost a freighter 8k off the gate playing by the rules. Now you want to scan my computer what are you an American politician? Rewarding bad behavior cause you failed to enforce your rules, and then take from those that did play by the rules? One more straw I'm out of this game.

Before you scan my computer make the following changes.
1) AP warp to 0, is it not obvious we don't like it the current AP 2,300 people risked losing their chars. (stop wasting our time) ( this was my brothers son's reason he stopped playing to much time wasted getting from point a to b)
2) Activities like Hulkageddon ( it was allowed to eliminate bots right? or did you think we needed the grief?) would no longer be an asset to the game as there will not be bots in the game. So prohibit those activities. If you want to agress someone in high sec wardec them, or be Concorded before you can blow up someone else's ship in High sec.
3) Make insurance cover the cost of a new ship including T2 ships and you buy it once and the ship is covered for the life of the ship provided it does not change hands.
4) The bounty System has become stupid as my market alt has a bounty on him and has done nothing to anyone and can only fly a newb ship. To place a bounty on some one should require some sort of preliminary aggression by the one getting the bounty.


I PHP (Players Helping Players) in this game. I have been in this game for years with 3 paid for accounts and don't really care for PVP (i don't hold it against people who do) yet the game continually becomes more geared to PVP; in low sec and null that's expected and i'm happy it is there, But It has moved more and more into high sec and may be the reason subscriptions have not continued to increase as a newb has little time to enjoy and learn the game before being blown-up. And now there is no place to relax and let your guard down in the game. I know from experience as my brother quit playing due to being blown up several times in high sec.


Can i haves your stuff when you leave? Smile
Bloody Wench
#700 - 2013-04-21 03:16:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloody Wench
Octoven wrote:
Bloody Wench wrote:
Octoven wrote:


Which is why it was a mistake to get rid of the ban warning in favor of a 2 step approach. You get a 30 ban for doing something that until CCP decided was illegal was perfectly ok with them. You just never know, having the warning at least gives the player the ability to say ok....since you just recently decided to enforce that, then I can change my play style without having to lose 30 days.



No. The bans were for client injection. Modifying python code inside the client. If you don't know exactly what went on then you don't have to worry about it.


I know exactly what went on, but what you fail to realize is that when CCP does a mass ban like this, yes 90-99% of players have cheated and should be banned, but there is also that 1% chance the detection was in error and as a result the player who was banned for doing something that they havent done is both insulting to that person and an embarrassment on the company for not having looked into it instead of leaping before looking.

I dont care how good a software you claim to have regarding modification of the client, you WILL inadvertently ban someone who doesnt deserve it. If you happen to be in a small corp or running a tower by yourself in a wh then you are ****** because even if they lift the ban and apologize you will probably lose the thing and everything in it....of course it wont be replaced either.



Look man, you don't understand what happened at all. Their detection 'software' was simply

if hasattr(Object, 'Name') // this is a standard python code so don't get your knickers in a twist.
does not match the original
then
tell me.

It's asking does object with name (Name) have a value of abc123? To which the value abc123 will never change on its own.
Otherwise go about your business.

Yes I'm being vague because they don't like it when I post actual code.


There's absolutely ZERO chance this would have had false positives.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack