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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Hannibal Ord
Fer-De-Lance
#41 - 2011-11-01 15:35:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannibal Ord
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hannibal Ord wrote:

If you nerf Minmatar, then you basically make Amarr THE race to fly, with few exceptions, in almost every ship category in the game.

Amarr is not that good. Scorch is good. They make Pulse Lasers the long range weapon. Make Beams the Long Range Weapons again and Pulses Short Range and that will bring backLR Weapon Balance.

Put Artillery in line with Rails and Beams and you will have balance w/o any race being OP.



In terms of Close range weapons:-

Scorch = Barrage - Same range, different flavour. Balanced.
MF = Fusion/EMP etc - same range, different flavour. Balanced.

In terms of long range weapons:-

I would agree that Minmatar has a trick with it's high alpha. For me this gives it flavour.
Rails and also lasers could probably do with a buff in this regard and I will agree it is out of balance. This does not mean Minmatar should be nerfed, it means the others should be improved. But remember lasers still have instant ammo switch (which is a HUGE plus) and also quicker ROF.

If you nerf it so they are back in line with the others you basically just undo the changes that made the weapon good as opposed to completely shocking and underpowered, which it was before.

As someone above me has said, wait until hybrids are buffed, see how they do. Then consider nerfing/buffer certain aspects of various weapons and ships. Asking for a nerf to an only recently buffed weapon system, after YEARS of it being underpowered is a stupid stupid thing to be asking for.

Edit:- I will agree completely that the fitting requirements of Projectiles are out of balance, which is the best argument for why they are good. For fitting Gallente and Amarr ships, it is often a big pain in the arse to fit your most hard hitting weapons, and for Minmatar it is not.
MNagy
Yo-Mama
#42 - 2011-11-01 15:38:01 UTC
I could argue the same problem about the drake's tank.

You can solo a c3 and possibly a c4
a hurricane cannot

If you think a minny ship is better - skill it up
just as if i think a drake is good for some things - ill skill that up.

Nothing is stopping you.
Alara IonStorm
#43 - 2011-11-01 15:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Hannibal Ord wrote:

In terms of Close range weapons:-

Scorch = Barrage - Same range, different flavour. Balanced.
MF = Fusion/EMP etc - same range, different flavour. Balanced.

Bolded is where you stopped making sense.

The Range of Scorch invalidated long range weapons as it is right where fleet range is supposed to be.

Hannibal Ord wrote:

In terms of long range weapons:-

I would agree that Minmatar has a trick with it's high alpha. For me this gives it flavour.
Rails and also lasers could probably do with a buff in this regard and I will agree it is out of balance. This does not mean Minmatar should be nerfed, it means the others should be improved. But remember lasers still have instant ammo switch (which is a HUGE plus) and also quicker ROF.

Everything you said is pointless because of Scorch (except Artillery Alpha which is OP) compared to Beams and Rails(Better known as the weapons Scorch Replaced).

Fights over 30-40 in a Battleship should involve Long Range Weapons and except for Artillery it does not. Medium Beams and Rails see almost no use ether
Hannibal Ord wrote:

As someone above me has said, wait until hybrids are buffed, see how they do. Then consider nerfing/buffer certain aspects of various weapons and ships. Asking for a nerf to an only recently buffed weapon system, after YEARS of it being underpowered is a stupid stupid thing to be asking for.

That Someone was wrong on every point.

Balance comes from looking at everything.

This should not be a Hybrid Buff but a Weapons Rebalance.
Sakkar Arenith
Kenmei Corporation
#44 - 2011-11-01 15:43:22 UTC
MNagy wrote:
I could argue the same problem about the drake's tank.

You can solo a c3 and possibly a c4
a hurricane cannot

If you think a minny ship is better - skill it up
just as if i think a drake is good for some things - ill skill that up.

Nothing is stopping you.


Yes, and the drake needs a nerf too.

The key word is ******* BALANCE! If one ship or races is used disproportionally often, then guess what, something is WRONG, and needs ADJUSTMENT
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2011-11-01 15:45:08 UTC
5nake pliskan wrote:
Zagam wrote:
[quote=Zarnak Wulf]

You're really pressing this troll for a character not even 2 years old, talking about "Eve on hard mode" and such.


yeah, about that 2 years.... its somewhat longer you n00b

*that's 2 years older than you*

Actually, I mis-stated the OP's age... he was created 2007.04.21. As for him being older, I was created 2006.02.01.

Also, the intent of my post was not to get into an e-peen contest, but rather call the OP out for trolling (I'll have to upgrade their troll score to 4/10, for the sheer number of posts and real discussion).
Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-11-01 15:47:38 UTC
I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!

Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.).
Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.

This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension.
MNagy
Yo-Mama
#47 - 2011-11-01 15:49:34 UTC
Sakkar Arenith wrote:
MNagy wrote:
I could argue the same problem about the drake's tank.

You can solo a c3 and possibly a c4
a hurricane cannot

If you think a minny ship is better - skill it up
just as if i think a drake is good for some things - ill skill that up.

Nothing is stopping you.


Yes, and the drake needs a nerf too.

The key word is ******* BALANCE! If one ship or races is used disproportionally often, then guess what, something is WRONG, and needs ADJUSTMENT


For every adjustment made - I think it will almost be 'impossible' to get an inbalance somewhere else.
I accept the imbalance knowing I can skill up what I need to skill up.

I agree with you about the "balance" problem, but I don't think its as a simple solution as made out to be. The tweaking on ships would take forever imo.
Hannibal Ord
Fer-De-Lance
#48 - 2011-11-01 15:54:55 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hannibal Ord wrote:

In terms of Close range weapons:-

Scorch = Barrage - Same range, different flavour. Balanced.
MF = Fusion/EMP etc - same range, different flavour. Balanced.

Bolded is where you stopped making sense.

The Range of Scorch invalidated long range weapons as it is right where fleet range is supposed to be.




Barrage and Scorch both share a very very similar range improvement.

An Maelstrom with 800's gets 6+36 with Barrage.
An Abaddon with Mega Pulse gets 45+10 with Scorch.

No they are not the same exact ranges - but very similar to each other overall. As opposed to a Rokh or Hype loading Null. So basically you are talking out of your arse.

You see a similar theme with say, an AC Vaga and a Pulse Zealot. If pulse lasers invalidate long range weapons, then AC's also do a similar thing. And then you get to the ups and downs of both weapon systems which becomes situational in how they balance each other out.
Twisted Alice
Doomheim
#49 - 2011-11-01 15:58:37 UTC
Joe Skellington wrote:
These forums are starting to resemble the WoW forums with cry threads about nerfing things. Wow, just wow.




Funny enough I was just thinking the same a short while before I read your post.
pussnheels
Viziam
#50 - 2011-11-01 15:59:29 UTC  |  Edited by: pussnheels
ok a question , ... why would there be a need to nerf projectile turrets

Granted they are good compared to hybrids and energy turrets
they only drawback i see if that they are minmatar and minmatar tend to be a bit more skill intensive than the other races or am i wrong .? plus they usually tend to run away from my curse
and don't anyone dare to touch my scorch

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#51 - 2011-11-01 16:00:44 UTC
My Omen sucks, nerf Cane! Blaster are broke nerf Autocannons! Please CCP make all ship suck equally so I can go back to WOW.

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Alara IonStorm
#52 - 2011-11-01 16:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Hannibal Ord wrote:

Barrage and Scorch both share a very very similar range improvement.

An Maelstrom with 800's gets 6+36 with Barrage.
An Abaddon with Mega Pulse gets 45+10 with Scorch.

No they are not the same exact ranges - but very similar to each other overall. As opposed to a Rokh or Hype loading Null. So basically you are talking out of your arse.

You seem to beleive I was talking about something besides Scorch invalidating non Arty long range Weapons. You should stop thinking that.

The fact that any short range weapons system can get a 45km Optimal is a mistake. Barrage looses to much in falloff to be an effective fleet tool..

Hannibal Ord wrote:

You see a similar theme with say, an AC Vaga and a Pulse Zealot. If pulse lasers invalidate long range weapons, then AC's also do a similar thing. And then you get to the ups and downs of both weapon systems which becomes situational in how they balance each other out.

Autocannons do not invalidate long range weapons because they deal way less DPS at range. They do however when combined with a good medium range and high speed screw over slow short range ships.
Alara IonStorm
#53 - 2011-11-01 16:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
pussnheels wrote:
minmatar tend to be a bit more skill intensive than the other races or am i wrong .?

Your wrong. They require about as much as any other race. 1400mm Arty can be used in Fleets at Lvl 4 while you need T2 for Scorch. Missiles are not a priority because there best ships do not use them. You don't need to train Armor early on because Shield is there real strength. Base Speed means you actually need to train less Nav skills in the beginning. Everything else(Support, Drones, ect) are on par with other races. This myth that Minmatar is harder to train is just that. I don't get why it is so popular.
pussnheels wrote:

and don't anyone dare to touch my scorch

L2Beam
Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#54 - 2011-11-01 16:12:06 UTC
I don't think Minmatar is overpowered by any degree as a lineup.

Where Minmatar shine (and are used most it seems) is in solo-PvP. It's rare in my experiences to see non-claoky solo-PvP'er roaming in anything other than either Hurricaine or Vagabond.

As they say, if you think something is OP, train it. Or try and build your own races ships to do it.

I prefer not to nerf stuff....well, SuperCaps go gfy, but other than them.
Hannibal Ord
Fer-De-Lance
#55 - 2011-11-01 16:12:58 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hannibal Ord wrote:

Barrage and Scorch both share a very very similar range improvement.

An Maelstrom with 800's gets 6+36 with Barrage.
An Abaddon with Mega Pulse gets 45+10 with Scorch.

No they are not the same exact ranges - but very similar to each other overall. As opposed to a Rokh or Hype loading Null. So basically you are talking out of your arse.

You seem to beleive I was talking about something besides Scorch invalidating non Arty long range Weapons. You should stop thinking that.

The fact that any short range weapons system can get a 45km Optimal is a mistake. Barrage looses to much in falloff to be an effective fleet tool..

Hannibal Ord wrote:

You see a similar theme with say, an AC Vaga and a Pulse Zealot. If pulse lasers invalidate long range weapons, then AC's also do a similar thing. And then you get to the ups and downs of both weapon systems which becomes situational in how they balance each other out.

Autocannons do not invalidate long range weapons because they deal way less DPS at range. They do however when combined with a good medium range and high speed screw over short range ships.


If that's what you believe then why are you arguing against me when I said Amarr where overall better than Minmatar and I don't agree with nerfing projectiles. Basically you are asking for a Scorch nerf, when it shares such similar properties to Barrage. I will agree Beams need something to balance themselves against Arties, but if you nerf Scorch well we should also nerf Barrage. If we make everything nice and close range that's fine, and blasters will just then **** all over both weapon systems again. When I look at Long range weapons I look at 100km + for mediums and 150+ for large weapons. You seem to think that anything above point range it long range.
Alara IonStorm
#56 - 2011-11-01 16:15:26 UTC
Alistair Cononach wrote:

Where Minmatar shine (and are used most it seems) is in solo-PvP. It's rare in my experiences to see non-claoky solo-PvP'er roaming in anything other than either Hurricaine or Vagabond.

Minmatar Fleet PvP is almost on par with Amarr while ruling Solo. Maelstroms, Tempests, Muniins and Arty Canes are all great fleet choices backed by excellent Minmatar Recons and Logistics.

Minmatar can do it all.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-11-01 16:20:14 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
You just have to visit the hybrid thread for the devblog to see how happy the Gallente are with their proposed "buff". I do fly Minmatar. And I say nerf it. Get us back to Eve on hard mode.


I fly gallente and matar.

Matar is way easier, you can disengage and all sorts of cool stuff.
Alara IonStorm
#58 - 2011-11-01 16:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Hannibal Ord wrote:

When I look at Long range weapons I look at 100km + for mediums and 150+ for large weapons. You seem to think that anything above point range it long range.

35-60 is where most fights get maneuvered to. Warp to/Probe Mechanics make it to hard to keep a fight out at those ranges and the enemy from escaping.

Hannibal Ord wrote:

Basically you are asking for a Scorch nerf, when it shares such similar properties to Barrage. I will agree Beams need something to balance themselves against Arties, but if you nerf Scorch well we should also nerf Barrage. If we make everything nice and close range that's fine, and blasters will just then **** all over both weapon systems again.

Never said nerf Barrage directly. I would however say Nerf Large Barrage and Large Scorch and keep medium Scorch and Barrage the way they are.

That along with buffing Medium LR Weapons would great in my books.
Hannibal Ord
Fer-De-Lance
#59 - 2011-11-01 16:23:29 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
You just have to visit the hybrid thread for the devblog to see how happy the Gallente are with their proposed "buff". I do fly Minmatar. And I say nerf it. Get us back to Eve on hard mode.


I fly gallente and matar.

Matar is way easier, you can disengage and all sorts of cool stuff.





You will find similar pleasure flying Amarr then. Not to the same extent, but the flexibility is also there.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2011-11-01 16:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Hannibal Ord wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
You just have to visit the hybrid thread for the devblog to see how happy the Gallente are with their proposed "buff". I do fly Minmatar. And I say nerf it. Get us back to Eve on hard mode.


I fly gallente and matar.

Matar is way easier, you can disengage and all sorts of cool stuff.





You will find similar pleasure flying Amarr then. Not to the same extent, but the flexibility is also there.



Honestly, I'm still a rookie and trying to train up Matar and Gallente has my training queue fill for the forseeable future.


However, I do occasionally feel Kamikazi, so I have a hangar full of blaster boats, SOMEONE is going to get it, the ship may or may no (likely not) come back, but I'ma blast something.

Quote:

Never said nerf Barrage directly. I would however say Nerf Large Barrage and Large Scorch and keep medium Scorch and Barrage the way they are.

That along with buffing Medium LR Weapons would great in my books.


Barrrage L is fine, at the end of Large scortch optimal you are only doing something like 300DPS with a Maelstrom and maybe 450 with a dual bonused Pest.

It may hurt a nano-cane, but hardly something that threatens a bricked up Baddon.

Where it gets silly is the Angel ships with the falloff bonus. So its not a fair comparison to scortch that is reaching that range at full DPS.