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Should someone have a chance to tackle a PvE'r that is doing everything right?
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Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-04-19 22:48:13 UTC
"Help, this other person is perfectly prepared against my actions to destroy their ship, please fix the game. It is broken."

Lol. Let me guess, one of the guys trying to kill you is Behponka, the guy on the forums calling for concord to be paid mercenaries and tackle ships for players.
Leper ofBacon
HELP GRANDMA SMASH HER LEGS IN
#62 - 2013-04-19 22:48:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Leper ofBacon
Untanas Volmyr wrote:
If pre-emptive tactical preparations can be planned out as precisely as yours. Then I would think that is why they cannot track you. Chess is a simple game. and has its limitations. If you know what to do as well as what not to do. The complexity of the challenge is what thrills many players. Me included. However to become so sure of your tactical wits protecting you from every scenario you could come up with. You may as well taunt your opponent until they flip the table over and claim its broken.


I don't count catching someone in a belt as a complex challenge at all. If he is prepared, just as he said, the only way to get him is if he makes a fatal mistake. If we assume he is playing the game all the time this is very unlikely as he has all the time in the world to do what he needs to do; click warp.

It's not like chess because the attacker has no time to make a move at all. You should certainly gain an advantage from preparation, but an ideal game for me is where you have to actually stick your neck out onto the playing field to make a gain. What we have in this scenario is a series of gameplay factors leading to a severely dull environment.
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#63 - 2013-04-19 23:13:23 UTC
My answer would be that Local is a terrible system that needs to go. It needs to be delayed, or toggleable, or there should be an anti-local module, or a skill to jam your local signal for x minutes every y interval... the solutions are endless, but a system that 100% informs every enemy instantly that you have entered their proximity is just a terrible system to have in a PvP game. We're all used to it, but from an objective viewpoint, it's just absolutely bizarre for an MMO.

Of course, without local you can still D-scan, use intel channels, etc to stay virtually 100% safe, but it would go a long way to giving the game a bit more fog of war.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#64 - 2013-04-19 23:34:54 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
And yet people rat and mine in wormholes all the time.

So no.


The trick is that the people in wormholes are the ones who want that style of play. The ones who aren't in wormholes have already expressed their lack of attraction toward that style of play.

Your sample is self-selecting, which means your conclusion is not valid.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-04-19 23:49:24 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
And yet people rat and mine in wormholes all the time.

So no.


The trick is that the people in wormholes are the ones who want that style of play. The ones who aren't in wormholes have already expressed their lack of attraction toward that style of play.

Your sample is self-selecting, which means your conclusion is not valid.

Just because some people would choose not to take the risk, does not mean no one would. I'm in no way saying null residents want or should have local removed. Just pointing out the blatant fallacy of "risk = deserted wasteland".

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2013-04-19 23:59:36 UTC
mechtech wrote:
Of course, without local you can still D-scan, use intel channels, etc to stay virtually 100% safe, but it would go a long way to giving the game a bit more fog of war.

Yeah, cause dscan can detect cloaked ships. Roll

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2013-04-20 00:00:45 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Just pointing out the blatant fallacy of "risk = deserted wasteland".

Risk without proportional reward = deserted wasteland.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-04-20 00:05:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
If CCP hamfistedly removed local I'd just grab a bomber, fit a covert cyno and scram on it and decloak right next to somebody running an anomaly, tackle them, light the cyno for a bunch of blackops BS (which have conveniently been given titan range) and kill ratters in easy mode. This isn't a difficult tactic requiring ~skill~, it's hilariously easy. The blackops BS aren't really at risk either, since they can dip to safespots and cloak.

You can say "WELL WITHOUT LOCAL HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY'RE THERE" but you can easily determine that just by looking at the map.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-04-20 00:09:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nah. That's the whole point of “doing everything right.”

His failure is not indicative of a broken game.

If the prey is doing everything 'right' and the predator is doing everything 'right'; the prey easily evades the predator every time.

I would say that is not balanced.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-04-20 00:10:57 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
If the prey is doing everything 'right' and the predator is doing everything 'right'; the prey easily evades the predator every time.

I would say that is not balanced.


It's only balanced if the prey is deaf, blind and dumb (preferably forcibly through game mechanics) so that even the biggest drooling cretin can kill them with ease

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-04-20 00:14:38 UTC
I'll take making nullsec more like wormholes if we make wormholes more like nullsec, ideally by giving them the magic of sov and supercaps

Fun for everyone!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Frying Doom
#72 - 2013-04-20 00:14:55 UTC
Making usage tied straight to Sovereignty will fix a lot of these problems.

If a single neut will stop you doing anything, you will lose sov, simple as that, then risk will very much equal reward, for both parties.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2013-04-20 00:17:38 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
[
To find out the answer to this question, simply look at the amount of PvE and mining that occurs in a null system with a single cloaky camper. (NONE!)

That is the level of activity there would be if it was not possible to "do everything right".

In a Wormhole, it's already not possible to always do everything right. There is always a chance there is a cloaky in system, that will point you long enough for a dictor to get on grid from outside dscan range. Then bring enough friends to send you to K space on the pod express.

And yet people rat and mine in wormholes all the time.

So no.



And what % of toons live in wormhole? 5%? You think you prove me wrong, but actually, you prove me right.

Not to mention, if you've not opened your out, and there is no generic in... the odds of that cloaky being there is pretty darn small.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-04-20 00:17:49 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Making usage tied straight to Sovereignty will fix a lot of these problems.

If a single neut will stop you doing anything, you will lose sov, simple as that, then risk will very much equal reward, for both parties.


Let's make 90% of nullsec even more irrelevant, that's a great idea!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-04-20 00:19:36 UTC
mechtech wrote:
My answer would be that Local is a terrible system that needs to go.



70% of players living in high sec isn't enough for you? You want to move even MORE people to high sec? Really?
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2013-04-20 00:21:29 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Making usage tied straight to Sovereignty will fix a lot of these problems.

If a single neut will stop you doing anything, you will lose sov, simple as that, then risk will very much equal reward, for both parties.



70% of players living in high sec isn't enough for you either I see.


Man, I can't believe how many people want to push even more people out of null and into high sec,

It seems you "fix the mechanics" people won't be happy until 90%+ of toons live in high sec.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-04-20 00:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
LHA Tarawa wrote:
70% of players living in high sec isn't enough for you? You want to move even MORE people to high sec? Really?


Fun fact: before last year's incursion nerf, players in alliances holding C6 wormholes and upgraded -1.0 truesec systems were running incursions in hisec

Oh wait the nerfs were mostly undone and we're back to that because CCP is too scared of nerfing the safest PvE around

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-04-20 00:24:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Just pointing out the blatant fallacy of "risk = deserted wasteland".

Risk without proportional reward = deserted wasteland.

Clearly the ones who feel the reward is insubstantial would just go to high sec, and the ones who feel it is would expose themselves to go after it. If the rewards did not justify the risk, it would be a clear and separate imbalance.

Andski wrote:
If CCP hamfistedly removed local I'd just grab a bomber, fit a covert cyno and scram on it and decloak right next to somebody running an anomaly, tackle them, light the cyno for a bunch of blackops BS (which have conveniently been given titan range) and kill ratters in easy mode. This isn't a difficult tactic requiring ~skill~, it's hilariously easy. The blackops BS aren't really at risk either, since they can dip to safespots and cloak.

You can say "WELL WITHOUT LOCAL HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY'RE THERE" but you can easily determine that just by looking at the map.


Just to play devil's advocate. The map could equally tell the ratter there's more people around than there should be based on friendlies around. It may also lead to revolutionary things like ratting in a group of pvp fit ships, solo ratting with warp stabs fit (lol), or in a ship that can drop a scramming bomber. Or ECM. Or staying on the move away from celestials so that a cloaked bomber can't get in scram range from the warp-in.

But yeah, 9 out of 10 people would probably just be free food. At least at first.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-04-20 00:28:10 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate. The map could equally tell the ratter there's more people around than there should be based on friendlies around. It may also lead to revolutionary things like ratting in a group of pvp fit ships, solo ratting with warp stabs fit (lol), or in a ship that can drop a scramming bomber. Or ECM. Or staying on the move away from celestials so that a cloaked bomber can't get in scram range from the warp-in.

But yeah, 9 out of 10 people would probably just be free food. At least at first.


Yeah no most people would just go run incursions in hisec because, as it is, they're just as lucrative as running anomalies in pimped faction battleships (because CCP doesn't believe in risk/reward when it comes to hisec) and much more so than running anomalies in some awful gimped setup.

The only ones who would stick around to run anomalies in 0.0 would either be idiots or bait.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2013-04-20 00:34:36 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Just pointing out the blatant fallacy of "risk = deserted wasteland".

Risk without proportional reward = deserted wasteland.

Clearly the ones who feel the reward is insubstantial would just go to high sec, and the ones who feel it is would expose themselves to go after it. If the rewards did not justify the risk, it would be a clear and separate imbalance.

The rewards barely justify the risk as it is. Removing local would completely upset the balance. Income generation would have to be several times what it is now in order to be worthwhile.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)