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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Marxzo Andoun
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1981 - 2013-04-19 14:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Marxzo Andoun
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

So, in fact, the complaints about the dominix come from the sentries ?

I think it's not a good idea to balance ship with the aim of working around a weapon system, but balance the weapon system instead ; dealing with the source of the problem instead of its effects.

If the dominix's problem is sentries, why not making the dominix a good sentry ship and fix the sentries instead of making the dominix good at something else and throwing sentries to the bin ?


Well first off, if sentries need to be fixed for this boat to work.. then do that first and then throw out the idea of basing ships on it, otherwise backlash is to be expected.

If sentries will be changed soon (tm), then it's inappropriate for this balance pass to base a ship on it.

Second, putting the Domi... hailed by many as the most verstile ship in Eve, into the role of just sentry sniper is not great either.

Fine if it was too versatile, and the shield/blaster gank ship has to be taken out, and the neut domi has to be taken out.. well then at least strengthen it's role as premiere drone ship. Is it not the single most iconic drone ship in Eve?

But wait, now it's going to be relegated to be better with only a single drone type? In addition, arguably worse than other drone ships for anything outside of the sniper role? Frustrating.

This is why I think a bonus that gives the Dominix good usage of a variety of drone types is appropriate. You'll have to look back in the thread a bit if you want to see the good ideas people have come up with for this.

[Edit: TBH I'd almost be happy with an added speed bonus so heavies could actually catch the smaller targets they would now be able to track]

Yes, I know many people want try a novelty doctrine and will try a hull or two, but after that wears off, the practicality sets in and people move back to their more mobile and higher DPS snipers, what's left? Not a ship that people will sit in on a regular basis unless they want more AFK out of their missions.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1982 - 2013-04-19 14:28:44 UTC
So we've reached 100 pages in this thread, and unless I've missed it, I haven't seen any posts from Rise since he put in the second batch of changes after the howls of rage over the first ones. Is this really what we're going live with?
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#1983 - 2013-04-19 14:50:19 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
So we've reached 100 pages in this thread, and unless I've missed it, I haven't seen any posts from Rise since he put in the second batch of changes after the howls of rage over the first ones. Is this really what we're going live with?

Now that the prospective change are live on duality they will show up and respond some more.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1984 - 2013-04-19 14:53:35 UTC
Marxzo Andoun wrote:
Well first off, if sentries need to be fixed for this boat to work.. then do that first and then throw out the idea of basing ships on it, otherwise backlash is to be expected.

If sentries will be changed soon (tm), then it's inappropriate for this balance pass to base a ship on it.

Second, putting the Domi... hailed by many as the most verstile ship in Eve, into the role of just sentry sniper is not great either.

Fine if it was too versatile, and the shield/blaster gank ship has to be taken out, and the neut domi has to be taken out.. well then at least strengthen it's role as premiere drone ship. Is it not the single most iconic drone ship in Eve?

But wait, now it's going to be relegated to be better with only a single drone type? In addition, arguably worse than other drone ships for anything outside of the sniper role? Frustrating.

This is why I think a bonus that gives the Dominix good usage of a variety of drone types is appropriate. You'll have to look back in the thread a bit if you want to see the good ideas people have come up with for this.

Yes, I know many people want try a novelty doctrine and will try a hull or two, but after that wears off, the practicality sets in and people move back to their more mobile and higher DPS snipers, what's left? Not a ship that people will sit in on a regular basis unless they want more AFK out of their missions.

If any, changing the gun bonus into a drone bonus made the domi MORE versatile. Losing 10% of your dps when you relied on guns won't kill the dominix...

And range+tracking is actually useful for drones too, not only sentries.

This dominix rage puzzle me in fact : half of the dominix fits didn't use guns at all, and when they did, they didn't always use six guns. So in most cases, the hybrid damage bonus was half used or not even used at all. Ok, now the armageddon will make full neutralizer dominixes less attractive, but still, there is one mid slot difference between the two, and that can make a huge difference.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1985 - 2013-04-19 14:57:53 UTC
After 100 pages and some feedback taken in account so these new slots/bonus changes actually seem more reasonable there are still dudes comparing oranges with apples and bananas.

This is a T1 battleship revamp !!!

They will obviously at some point be equal or superior to T2/Navy/Pirate versions UNTIL THOSE ARE ALSO REVAMP !!

How hard is this to understand?-bring those version actual bonus/strengths/weaknesses to improve T1 versions is ok but not if it's for tears and moaning T1 BS will be better for a moment.

These comments mixing T2/pirate/navy ships with T1 rebalance are not only useless but also leading to many misunderstanding mistakes, just stop it, it's worthless.
Keep you T2 Pirate Navy ship comments for the right moment and the right thread please.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Marxzo Andoun
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1986 - 2013-04-19 15:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Marxzo Andoun
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

If any, changing the gun bonus into a drone bonus made the domi MORE versatile. Losing 10% of your dps when you relied on guns won't kill the dominix...

And range+tracking is actually useful for drones too, not only sentries.

This dominix rage puzzle me in fact : half of the dominix fits didn't use guns at all, and when they did, they didn't always use six guns. So in most cases, the hybrid damage bonus was half used or not even used at all. Ok, now the armageddon will make full neutralizer dominixes less attractive, but still, there is one mid slot difference between the two, and that can make a huge difference.


Range is useful to drones with a 1k optimal (ie anything other than sentries)? Roll And if you think flight-time is an issue with Ogres when DPSing BS sized ships, how do you think they will fare trying to catch the smaller ships that they can now track? This is of course assuming you don't simply switch to smaller drones which you could always do anyway.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1987 - 2013-04-19 15:54:20 UTC
Marxzo Andoun wrote:
Range is useful to drones with a 1k optimal (ie anything other than sentries)? Roll And if you think flight-time is an issue with Ogres when DPSing BS sized ships, how do you think they will fare trying to catch the smaller ships that they can now track? This is of course assuming you don't simply switch to smaller drones which you could always do anyway.

Maybe use your mid slots to actually catch your target ?
Marxzo Andoun
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1988 - 2013-04-19 16:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Marxzo Andoun
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Marxzo Andoun wrote:
Range is useful to drones with a 1k optimal (ie anything other than sentries)? Roll And if you think flight-time is an issue with Ogres when DPSing BS sized ships, how do you think they will fare trying to catch the smaller ships that they can now track? This is of course assuming you don't simply switch to smaller drones which you could always do anyway.

Maybe use your mid slots to actually catch your target ?


So you want a BS to tackle the frigs and cruisers? Assuming that mistake does happen, can we not fit tackle now? Can we not use lighter drones now?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1989 - 2013-04-19 16:13:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Marxzo Andoun wrote:
So you want a BS to tackle the frigs and cruisers? Assuming that mistake does happen, can we not fit tackle now? Can we not use lighter drones now?

Man, you can do whatever you want : that's versatility in fact. You are asking me how can heavy drones actually hit smaller targets, and I answered you : you may tackle a cruiser and release your heavy drones, or someone else can do it, and you can use either sentries or heavies ; if the heavies aren't fast enough, drone nav computers may boost their speed to acceptable levels.

As for the range on drones, it helps them hitting their target sooner as they start shooting before their optimale 1000m range. Also, most drones orbit farther than they can track their target in fact, the tracking bonus will help there too. That's not so visible for heavies shooting at BS, but any other case, that's actually useful.

But do I really need to teach you how to use drones ? What's your problem in fact, besides your preference for a hybrid damage bonus ?
Jovat
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1990 - 2013-04-19 16:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jovat
Marxzo Andoun wrote:
Second, putting the Domi... hailed by many as the most verstile ship in Eve, into the role of just sentry sniper is not great either.

Fine if it was too versatile, and the shield/blaster gank ship has to be taken out, and the neut domi has to be taken out.. well then at least strengthen it's role as premiere drone ship. Is it not the single most iconic drone ship in Eve?

But wait, now it's going to be relegated to be better with only a single drone type? In addition, arguably worse than other drone ships for anything outside of the sniper role? Frustrating.


Tracking helps all drone types, just sentry drones most. The changes makes the Dominix more versatile, not less, because not only do drones get better damage application, but tank and fitting is improved. You won't know what to expect with a Domi except drones.

They'll be better as RR, pulse, autocannon. Close range neut will still be viable, though the Armageddon has a more carved out role for that, while the Domi will have better damage application.

The only fit that is possibly worse off is the neutron blaster domi, with 12% less DPS, which plausibly is made up for it better drone damage application, and certainly is compensated for in better tank and fitting.

I do think the drone bay should be 400 so you could have 3 flights of large drones and a flight of small drones (and 425 on domi navy for two flights of smalls.) Yeah, I'd like it if there were a bunch of other bonuses on the hull, but then the hull bonuses start to look a little crowded.
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#1991 - 2013-04-19 16:34:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Dominix:

With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.

We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!

I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones – no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)

As you progress from cruiser to battleship, there is a significant gain in theoretical maximum DPS for all weapons beside drones. Drone damage is the same for Ishtar and Dominix, and their only DPS difference lies in un/bonus hybrid weapon. To bring drone in line with other weapon system, "+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints " could change to an ability to fit 1 drone control unit per level for battleship. DPS for drone battleship would raise form the current 7.5 sentry to 10 sentry drone.
Tom Guhl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1992 - 2013-04-19 16:54:38 UTC
ExAstra wrote:
Actually I would like to take a minute to address drones and the new Dominix.

As it seems right now we're getting the new bonus of:
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)

This MOSTLY affects Sentry drones. You can pretend it doesn't affect the other drones, but it does. It lets Mediums hit frigates better and Heavies hit cruisers harder (and more consistently in both cases). Grab a friend with a frigate and cruiser on SiSi and test the drone's performance with a Dominix equipped with dual OTLs and without. The difference isn't mind boggling but it's there, and it allows the Dominix more consistently applied DPS.

But anyway, it MOSTLY affects Sentry drones, like everyone in this thread already knows. So what's the problem with that? Well, to a certain extent, none. Sentry drones are awesome and giving them a range/tracking bonus really WOULD help set the Dominix apart from the Armageddon. I say would because BY ITSELF it isn't enough. So something needs to change.

One of the biggest problems is Drone Control Range. From a gameplay and lore perspective drone control range makes sense. But for SENTRY drones it doesn't. The idea behind Drone Control Range is that you have a limited space within which to stream information and commands to your drones. So, I ask, WHY does this apply to Sentry Drones? They're (normally) sitting right next to you the whole time. If I can lock a target 120+km out (with SeBos that will be equipped instead of OTLs with this rebalance) my beautifully optimally buffed Bouncer IIs SHOULD be able to start sniping it. And I shouldn't have to have my high slots filled with heavy CPU stealing Drone Link Augmentor IIs. There is no sense to the Drone Control Range hindering sentries in that sense. Instead, the Drone Control Range should come into effect for your distance from the drones, not (necessarily) the target. I say necessarily because in the case of Attack/Scout drones, where they will have to move TO said target, target distance stops being a non-issue and the drones shouldn't be able to comply.

I personally see no reason why, if I'm 59km from my Warden IIs, and my target is another 100km away from me, why I can't stream that targeting information to the Sentry drones and have them engage my target. I DO see why I shouldn't be able to sick a flight of 10km/s (DNC boosted) Warrior IIs on them. If there is a serious gameplay balance issue with this, please enlighten me because I personally don't see it.



So yeah, I think that change alone could really help the Dominix stand out from the Armageddon, at least as a drone sniper. This problem does nothing to solve that sentries can't move/etc. and that still needs to be addressed. In fact it all needs to be addressed in my opinion. I think that such a simple change would actually be more beneficial than a drone control range ship bonus as it leaves the Dominix's attack drones regulated to the 60km maximum, but the sentry drones become far more viable in comparison, but all drones for the ship are still getting a nice little buff.

I'm worried this will go overlooked by CCP in the vast depths of this thread, but I don't see any immediate problems with such a proposal. And yeah, CCP, drones still need an overhaul!

I don't know. How does a sentry sniping Dominix compare in damage to other snipers? Would it really be fair to let them keep all their high slots for close range damage or whatever as well as sniping capability?
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1993 - 2013-04-19 17:13:31 UTC
mm.. i think the domi should lose a couple of turret slots like the other droneboats without a hybrid damage bonus i.e. navy vexor.

Sentry drones should be able to target a ship irrelevant of what the domi's range limitations are afterall its the drones doing the shooting and the sentries sitting next to the ship should not require drone control range to be the same as the ships lock range

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Jovat
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1994 - 2013-04-19 17:14:20 UTC
Higgs Maken wrote:
As you progress from cruiser to battleship, there is a significant gain in theoretical maximum DPS for all weapons beside drones. Drone damage is the same for Ishtar and Dominix, and their only DPS difference lies in un/bonus hybrid weapon. To bring drone in line with other weapon system, "+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints " could change to an ability to fit 1 drone control unit per level for battleship. DPS for drone battleship would raise form the current 7.5 sentry to 10 sentry drone.


Not appropriate. Look at the cost of a drone control unit, and also realize your drone HP is now 50% lower, while eating up all your high slots. Better to just ask for 15% per level.

Anyways, comparison isn't right. Ishtar is a T2 HAC, Domi is T1 battleship.
KiithSoban
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#1995 - 2013-04-19 17:38:15 UTC  |  Edited by: KiithSoban
edit: recalled

I want to see logi appear on killmails! (by just repping)  See CSM "reasonable things"
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1996 - 2013-04-19 18:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Ok, I tried out a New Dominix of the Duality Test Server
[High Slots]
350mm Railgun II (Iridium Charge L) {74Km Optimal} x6
Drone Link Augmentor II x1
[Mid Slots]
Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II (Optimum Range)
Sensor Booster II (Scan Resolution) Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range)
Drone Navigation Computer II
[Low Slots]
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer (Nanite Repair Paste)
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II x2
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II x2
Drone Damage Amplifier II
[Rigs]
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I x2
EHP 84K DPS 638.8 @ 74K
[Drone Bay]
Curator II x5
Ogre II x5
Hobgoblin x5
Medium Armor Maintaince Bot II x5 (Personal Reasons)
EC-300 x5 Salvage Drone I x5 (PvE)

Soloed a Serpintes Hub and a Serpentis Sanctum, performed well.
Some thoughts, could use more drone bay still, I could have used a mid range drone and had none. 50~75m3 would work well. Overall it can work as is but a control range bonus would do wonders as would some extra drone bay.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Ju0ZaS
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1997 - 2013-04-19 18:35:53 UTC
How about giving the domi a special ability next to the new bonuses - 99% less powergrid use for drone control units and giving it a 250 bandtidth. Also make the control unit cheaper to produce so you wouldn't turn a ship with 10 drones 5 times more expensive. This would cause the Domi pilots to give up some high slots for extra drones and leave them with one extra slot for a neut or something. I think this would be the most balanced way of giving the Domi 10 drones. Also, extra drone bay space would be nice.

Are you going to fight me or do you expect to bore me to death with your forum pvp?
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
#1998 - 2013-04-19 19:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ExAstra
Tom Guhl wrote:
ExAstra wrote:
/lots of stuff/

I don't know. How does a sentry sniping Dominix compare in damage to other snipers? Would it really be fair to let them keep all their high slots for close range damage or whatever as well as sniping capability?

Okay so the stupid draft system ate my post (again) and so this is going to be slightly less organized than it originally was.

Basically, I'm comparing post-balance Apocalypse to post-balance Dominix with everything we know so far. This means the Apocalypse will use Tachyons with far less fitting headaches, and includes the new tracking bonus. I'm not including TEs on the Apoc (it would obviously normally have them) because I don't feel like figuring out how the stacking bonus maths work right now. But I will include the tracking since TE tracking isn't getting nerfed.

Apocalypse, 8x Tachyon IIs, 3x Heat Sink IIs, 2x SeBo IIs Target Script, 2x TE IIs
401 DPS @ 163km + 25km
Tracking: .008

Dominix, 5x Warden IIs, 3x Drone Damage Amplifier IIs, 2x OTL IIs, 5x Drone Link Augmentor IIs, 2x SeBo IIs Target Script
563 DPS @ 170km + 30km
Tracking: .021


So the Dominix gets an extra ~160 DPS. In order to come close to the range of the Apocalypse, it REQUIRES 2 OTLs fit, otherwise its range sits at 112km. And in order to be able to command the drones to attack anything, it requires 5 Drone Link Augmentor IIs. These DLAs have the CPU requirements of 5x skilled 425mm Railgun IIs.

So for similar performance, the Dominix requires a lot more modules to be equipped to the ship. The DPS and tracking are nice (does its tracking being that high really matter at these ranges, though? I'm a little uninformed there), but the downsides are:

1) The DPS is destroyable on the Dominix, not the Apocalypse. Losing a single drone drops the Dominixes DPS by over 110.
2) The Dominix is forced to remain stationary or lose its DPS.


The second point is pretty important for a sniper, too. Also note that the Apocalypses actual range would be significantly higher than I have it listed, since there'd be the optimal/falloff bonus from the TEs. Personally, I still think that the drone control range for sentries should be eliminated. Or at least enhanced.

And for reference, without damage modules the numbers are:
Apoc: 243 DPS
Domi: 337 DPS

If anything, I think the sentry drones (except maybe Garde) could use a slight damage nerf. Bring the Warden's Damage modifier down to 1.55x from 1.77x, have the Bouncers and Curators follow in line. The Gardes have barely half the range of the next nearest (Curator) and after this update still only get 45km optimals (somewhere around 60 after OTLs). Or the Drone Damage Amplifiers could be nerfed a bit (ie T2 from 23% boost each to ~20% boost each)

Save the drones!
Tom Guhl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1999 - 2013-04-19 19:38:54 UTC
Ju0ZaS wrote:
How about giving the domi a special ability next to the new bonuses - 99% less powergrid use for drone control units and giving it a 250 bandtidth. Also make the control unit cheaper to produce so you wouldn't turn a ship with 10 drones 5 times more expensive. This would cause the Domi pilots to give up some high slots for extra drones and leave them with one extra slot for a neut or something. I think this would be the most balanced way of giving the Domi 10 drones. Also, extra drone bay space would be nice.

The problem with this is that, as a carrier module, the DCU is stupidly expensive to be fitting to a T1 battleship. Extra drones is a worthy suggestion, but it would have to be either a ship ability (not requiring modules) or tied to a more feasible module, like Drone Link Augmentors or something instead of actual DCUs. (So that you'd still have to give up high slots.)
Broxus Maximas
Perkone
Caldari State
#2000 - 2013-04-19 19:58:20 UTC
Jovat wrote:
Broxus Maximas wrote:
You really don't like the Gallente BS do you? These are major nerfs for the Domi and I can pray to God that they don't change the Navy version with this nerf also.


-12% EFT DPS in the max damage full rack of neutrons that is compensated by vastly better damage application with drones, much more tank, more powergrid to fit more modules, more powerful guns...

Not sure how this is a major nerf. This makes the Domi much more flexible, and in most cases more powerful.


12% damage is a significant nerf to me. What is a major nerf to you 20%? Yes this will help Sentries but really does nothing much for other drones. Sell it anyway you want but these Domi changes are flat out nerfs. I hope they change or they at least don't touch the Navy Domi which will still be solid.