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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Gallenteans and their freedoms. I. Freedom of speech.

Author
Laria Raven
The Scope
#61 - 2013-04-17 16:36:45 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

I have learned the lesson, that words have value.


By the rules of supply and demand, yours have very little.

Fallen from grace. And as night comes, may flights of Angels visit your sleep... shoot your ships and steal all of your stuff.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-04-17 17:39:54 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
If you would like to participate in discussion, you must ask proper questions, and, of course, you must start it with apologies.

I've done nothing I need to apologise for.

You, on the other hand, should be grovelling. And not just to me, although that would be a start.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-04-17 19:14:32 UTC
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
Diana.
Demanding that, if you don't like someone, they have to begin any statement with an apology is, especially coming from you, simply a joke.

This is not a joke, this is a separation process of material I would like to work with, and the one, which should better lay in a waste bin. Look, I don't ask people for apologies if I don't like them. I ask, if it is they who don't like me and if they express it instead of participating in discussion. Usually, it means, I do not want to talk at all with them and just give them a 'NO' sign in such form.

Of course, should they choose to apologize, this would mean they are people of honor and actually deserve my time.

Toluijin Chagangan wrote:

You have ignored every level attempt to explain your misconception regarding freedom of speech since the beginning of this thread, instead attempting to colour the conversation to yet another blind rage against the Federation.

If you are sincere in your wish for open debate, you have to keep an open mind and actually engage in the debate. This is something you seem to have difficulty doing.

Keeping mind open is what I am trying to do here and asking others to do.
On the other hand, discussing a person instead of a topic, is not debate.
It is a straight and plain TROLLING.

Toluijin Chagangan wrote:

While I congratulate you on the attempt to broaden your horizons by asking the questions you asked. You have to realise that when you ask questions like this, you may not like the true answers.
You also have to accept the truths for what they are, even if you find them distasteful.

I pray to winds to guide me to people who are seeking the truth and to keep me away from ones who have found it.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-04-17 22:02:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Diana Kim wrote:

Quite counterwise, sir.
I find your arguments full of personal attacks, and ignored them because they weren't professional. Thus I could say, that it is your approach that made your arguments invalid and ignored.


Interesting, I actually gave you rather generous compliments at the beginning of my post.

Fredfredbug4

wrote:
You've gained some respect back from me Ms. Kim. By explaining your thoughts coherently, you don't appear to be the deranged psychopath I thought you once were.


The interesting part is that a lot of what you said is actually true.



You're just misguided, set on the wrong path by your tyrannical government. You know what the big picture is, but you don't know how to get there.


So, considering what I said compared to some of your other opponent's comments, I would hardly say I was using personal attacks. Passive aggressive and sarcastic? Yes, but certainly not personal attacks.

Another thing that's quite confusing is that you claim that you didn't respond to me because of personal attacks that weren't even there, yet you frequently respond to people who always attack you personally.

It's very clear that you either have a grudge against me, can't actually refute my points or both.

Diana Kim wrote:
Pro-tip: starting with apologies will highly increase your chances of receiving answers on questions you want answered.


You deserve no apology as I have done nothing wrong. I'm one of the last people in this thread that should be apologizing, if not the last person.

I can give you a hug if that will make you feel better, but I'm sticking to my guns. If you feel that I should apologize, your going to have to give me a pretty good reason. If my typical passive-aggressive and sarcastic nature offended you then I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but if you fully understood what I said then I'm afraid I cannot apologize for it.

Diana Kim wrote:
Oh, and one more thing, if you come here just to "win arguments", I suggest you better just consider you "won it", leave it and do not hinder the discussion, and do not waste my time, thanks in advance!


Where did I claim that I wanted to win an argument? I merely stated that since you have not responded, I can safely assume I proved you wrong. It doesn't mean I won, it just means I am confident that you are wrong until you can prove otherwise.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#65 - 2013-04-18 01:30:15 UTC
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
Only if the point you're referencing is that you REALLY are an idiot Katran.


This coming from someone who spends their day banging rocks together... I'll take it as a compliment, then.

Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
If you think that any society in this cluster works like that, I feel your upbringing must be colouring your judgement somewhat.


What I am saying is that every society has means of silencing dissent. The means are different but the end result is the same.

Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
That said, dissenting voices in Amarr are generally enslaved and sent to the uranium mines or killed. So I can understand why you might think that is normal.


Dissenting voices in the Amarr are indeed very often enslaved or executed, if the become a big enough problem. It was not long ago that the Republic decided to end the life a Preacher of the Faith, along with several of his followers, to them from speaking and blew up the theater where a play was being held that their government didn't approve of. We will never know how many people the Black Eagles have made disappear in the Federation, either, and they show no signs of slowing down any time soon.

The point that I am making is that we don't lie about it. We don't try to sweep it under the rug and then go out that same day and brag about how we're think we're the champions of liberty & free speech. No government believes in complete freedom of any kind. The only difference is where they place the line between "harmless" freedom and "dangerous" freedom and - again, my original point - whether or not those lines are clearly drawn into actual public law or whether they are invisible, unwritten and cultivated by a strong sense of doublethink & self-denial.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-04-18 04:45:29 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
I merely stated that since you have not responded, I can safely assume I proved you wrong.

Then could you please safely enjoy that feeling alone for a while and don't bother me with your "arguments" again?
I have more important things to do.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-04-18 04:50:33 UTC
Andreus Ixiris
Laria Raven

If you both want to discuss the topic, you must ask correct questions, and start with apologies if you want to receive answers.


Adreena Madeveda

Replacing others words is not a merited way of discussing things. You should apologize too, if you want to discuss something.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-04-18 05:00:51 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:

What I am saying is that every society has means of silencing dissent. The means are different but the end result is the same.

I would like to note, that silencing dissent is only a minor and very rare occurrence of forcing rules, imposed on speech.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Laria Raven
The Scope
#69 - 2013-04-18 06:56:03 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Andreus Ixiris
Laria Raven

If you both want to discuss the topic, you must ask correct questions, and start with apologies if you want to receive answers.


You seem to have an amazingly exaggerated view of your own importance. I will discuss the topic if I wish to discuss the topic, without needing your approval.

And I don't care about your answers - as far as I'm concerned, you're just a lump of meat that's likely to end up frozen and orbiting eternally around some dog's rear of a world.

You don't even qualify as a human being, because human beings only spew effluent from one end.

Fallen from grace. And as night comes, may flights of Angels visit your sleep... shoot your ships and steal all of your stuff.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-04-18 09:37:49 UTC
Laria Raven wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Andreus Ixiris
Laria Raven

If you both want to discuss the topic, you must ask correct questions, and start with apologies if you want to receive answers.


You seem to have an amazingly exaggerated view of your own importance. I will discuss the topic if I wish to discuss the topic, without needing your approval.

And I don't care about your answers - as far as I'm concerned, you're just a lump of meat that's likely to end up frozen and orbiting eternally around some dog's rear of a world.

You don't even qualify as a human being, because human beings only spew effluent from one end.


There is no need to show real gallente face once again here.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#71 - 2013-04-18 10:22:40 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

There is no need to show real gallente face once again here.


I believe you're mixing ethnicity and politics here.
Or, just being blatantly racist. We don't take kindly to that, you see.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc

Laria Raven
The Scope
#72 - 2013-04-18 10:33:12 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

There is no need to show real gallente face once again here.


I'm a pirate! I run with some of the worst criminals in the Cluster, and Vincent Pryce. I destroy the ships of the innocently unwary. I have sat above a gate hanging in the darkest of space and shot the pods and ended the lives of refugees fleeing from a giant space battle. And I laughed while I was doing it.

And you think the reason that I insulted you was that I'm Gallente?

Fallen from grace. And as night comes, may flights of Angels visit your sleep... shoot your ships and steal all of your stuff.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-04-18 12:34:33 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

There is no need to show real gallente face once again here.


I believe you're mixing ethnicity and politics here.
Or, just being blatantly racist. We don't take kindly to that, you see.

Well, sir. This has nothing to do with politics. As far as I understand, politics involve expressing own views, likes and dislikes, methods of problem solutions.

What we have seen there is not expression of political views, but rather an expression of an individual's culture level, of her upbringing as a gallente citizen and her legacy.

Despite being simply disgusting, this "expression" is a finest example of gallentean freedom of speech.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-04-18 18:47:04 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Then could you please safely enjoy that feeling alone for a while and don't bother me with your "arguments" again?
I have more important things to do.


I honestly enjoy being proved wrong much more than being correct when it comes to philosophical debates. It gives me a new perspective on things.

I want to see if you can prove me wrong, even though I doubt that you can.

And what could possibly be keeping you so busy? You spend so much time barking here that it's probably the only thing you have to do.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Toluijin Chagangan
Doomheim
#75 - 2013-04-18 20:16:40 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
Only if the point you're referencing is that you REALLY are an idiot Katran.


This coming from someone who spends their day banging rocks together... I'll take it as a compliment, then.

Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
If you think that any society in this cluster works like that, I feel your upbringing must be colouring your judgement somewhat.


What I am saying is that every society has means of silencing dissent. The means are different but the end result is the same.

Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
That said, dissenting voices in Amarr are generally enslaved and sent to the uranium mines or killed. So I can understand why you might think that is normal.


Dissenting voices in the Amarr are indeed very often enslaved or executed, if the become a big enough problem. It was not long ago that the Republic decided to end the life a Preacher of the Faith, along with several of his followers, to them from speaking and blew up the theater where a play was being held that their government didn't approve of. We will never know how many people the Black Eagles have made disappear in the Federation, either, and they show no signs of slowing down any time soon.

The point that I am making is that we don't lie about it. We don't try to sweep it under the rug and then go out that same day and brag about how we're think we're the champions of liberty & free speech. No government believes in complete freedom of any kind. The only difference is where they place the line between "harmless" freedom and "dangerous" freedom and - again, my original point - whether or not those lines are clearly drawn into actual public law or whether they are invisible, unwritten and cultivated by a strong sense of doublethink & self-denial.


So. you're claiming that a known terrorist group calling themselves 'free our families' worked at the behest of Karin Midular's government?
You also say that you don't know how many the SDII have arrested, but go on to insinuate that it's a constant activity. Evidence is a wonderful thing, you have none.
You do claim to be working towards the best interests of those you enslave, beat, drug and kill. The freedoms within the Federation far outstrip the freedoms granted to the civilian populations of any other empire, the Republic included.

As for your claim that the federation charter and law does not state what freedom of speech and the very freedoms that the Federation espouses are, you are again showing your ignorance, hypocrisy and borderline xenophobic racism.
The entire point of the Federation charter is to do just that.


Seven Tribes.
One Matari People
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#76 - 2013-04-19 07:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
Evidence is a wonderful thing, you have none.


Correction: Evidence is a powerful thing, and that's why such great lengths go towards to making it disappear.

That is the sword-on-a-string for the Federation. Here we are not taught any fictional ideas about being able to get away with anything, so we're not raised with any sense of entitlement to placing our personal rights above the needs of the Empire. When an inquisitor drags someone away we know it and we know why it happened. But one half of the coin in Federation doublethink is the belief that "it could never happen here" and because of that belief if the knowledge that "it can and most definitely does happen here" might just cause an uproar loud enough to actually threaten those men who live in the shadows.

But then again, it probably wouldn't - give it another few years and it definitely won't, because it will just another part of their social subconscious. But until those men in the shadows can be certain of this it will continue to remain imperative to keep a nice, quiet lid on everything - at least until the level of Federation nationalism reaches the threshold where they don't have to operate in secret anymore. When the average citizen comes to see the Black Eagles as great heroes instead of bloody assassins.

And when that day comes I will be sincerely clapping. Or has it happened already? Or... most likely... is it slowly happening right now as we speak?

See, the only problem I have with "secret police" is the "secret" part. One who punishes heresies & traitors - one who is truly righteous in judgement - should never have to hide in the shadows like a rodent. Those who deliver justice should always stand proud for all to see, their verdicts broadcast on public channels and their word heard by everyone. I don't have a problem with Blaque disposing of people he thinks are a threat to his government. What I have a problem with is that his government is trying to fool people into thinking that it isn't happening. It's weak.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Toluijin Chagangan
Doomheim
#77 - 2013-04-19 10:48:36 UTC
You are claiming that the fact you have no evidence is evidence in and of itself.
Given this, do you also agree that the Empress has, as muck raker claimed in a previous article, been having a long term lesbian affair with many of her Matari attendants? Or perhaps you also wish to claim that the invisible pink unicorn is controlling the minds of every national leader?

You are down to conspiracy theories and the use of an image of the man who admitted that it was his actions that allowed tripwire to fail during the one day war to make your point now.

The image you have used there is utterly out of context too.

is it that you don't like having a single shred of credibility left, or do you think that using a 'shocking' image would give your argument credibility, even if it is from a well known event that has no link to the things you are claiming?

Grand Admiral Eturrer had committed treason against the Federation, He had freely admitted his guilt. His treason cost the lives of untold innocent civilians.
The image you used was of his PUBLIC execution. So, no real secrecy there.

Shall we also look at the reason the SDII become involved in things?
Federate secrets, Federation national security.

In fact, the Ministry of Internal Order is the Amarrian equivalent, and they release information on their activities a touch less often than the SDII do.

If you have a problem with the 'secret' part of the secret police that every empire has, to ensure that their secrets remain so, my suggestion, move to nullsec and live a hermetic life in an unpopulated system. Every empire, whether a signatory to the Yulai convention or not, whether capsuleer or baseline, has it's internal security forces. they all do the same job.

pointing at the one that is by far, the least secretive about it's actions, and yelling that it is therefore the most secretive, most pervasive and most vicious one is ignorant, to say the very least.


Seven Tribes.
One Matari People.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-04-19 14:57:30 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
If you both want to discuss the topic, you must ask correct questions, and start with apologies if you want to receive answers.

There is nothing I have to apologise for.

Don't demand apologies from people you owe them to, prick.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Anslo
Scope Works
#79 - 2013-04-19 15:03:02 UTC
I don't get why you all waste time with her. Just ignore her and let her fade into irrelevance. That's the best thing to do against her.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]