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Dev Blog: CSM 8 Elections--CCP on the impact of the Council

First post First post
Author
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#101 - 2013-04-18 19:07:21 UTC
CSM 7 in RL media http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-18/multiplayer-game-eve-online-cultivates-a-most-devoted-following#p2
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Dilbert HighSeed
Pirannha Corp
#102 - 2013-04-18 19:55:24 UTC
mynnna wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
mynnna wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
first page \o/

Is it too late to throw a few bribes out to the CSM8 candidates?

Better yet how do we get CCP Dolan to throw out a bunch of NULL SEC blocks ballots due to something like hanging chads?Lol


Can't win the election fairly, so you're looking to cheat.

Are you an American? We have a lovely political party you'd fit right in with called the "GOP". Blink



AND YOU GOON ARE ACCUSING ME OF CHEATING: http://i.imgur.com/Vz9SUw8.png ShockedTwistedEvil


Well this is eve.


In any rational world, including Eve, all CFC candidates would be disqualified as the goons organized a campaign to suppress the vote by plastering that link all over high sec.

Of course, given who implemented this "voting" system, and who this system directly benefits, nothing will happen to the perpetrators.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#103 - 2013-04-18 21:37:40 UTC


Lol

Well I suppose it wasn't bad by the standards of journalism that seem to prevail these days. He got at least 50% of his facts more or less correct.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#104 - 2013-04-18 21:38:17 UTC
Dilbert HighSeed wrote:
mynnna wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
mynnna wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
first page \o/

Is it too late to throw a few bribes out to the CSM8 candidates?

Better yet how do we get CCP Dolan to throw out a bunch of NULL SEC blocks ballots due to something like hanging chads?Lol


Can't win the election fairly, so you're looking to cheat.

Are you an American? We have a lovely political party you'd fit right in with called the "GOP". Blink



AND YOU GOON ARE ACCUSING ME OF CHEATING: http://i.imgur.com/Vz9SUw8.png ShockedTwistedEvil


Well this is eve.


In any rational world, including Eve, all CFC candidates would be disqualified as the goons organized a campaign to suppress the vote by plastering that link all over high sec...


Where might this RL rational world be?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2013-04-18 21:43:46 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
... luckily it played out in such a way that the rest of the CSM could make the best of it.
I read this as "luckily we were able to ride Two Step's coattails."
You read it wrong. Stop bad mouthing Hans and Alex! They are two of the hardest working guys on the council and their feedback has been wonderful.
I like Aleks.

I'd rather two Aleks on the council, than two Hans. One is just a hardworker, whereas the other adds sycophant to his resume in heaps.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-04-18 22:23:08 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
... luckily it played out in such a way that the rest of the CSM could make the best of it.
I read this as "luckily we were able to ride Two Step's coattails."
You read it wrong. Stop bad mouthing Hans and Alex! They are two of the hardest working guys on the council and their feedback has been wonderful.
I like Aleks.

I'd rather two Aleks on the council, than two Hans. One is just a hardworker, whereas the other adds sycophant to his resume in heaps.


Poetic "I know the CSM better than people who have worked with them all year" Stanziel strikes again.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2013-04-18 23:18:45 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
... luckily it played out in such a way that the rest of the CSM could make the best of it.
I read this as "luckily we were able to ride Two Step's coattails."
You read it wrong. Stop bad mouthing Hans and Alex! They are two of the hardest working guys on the council and their feedback has been wonderful.
I like Aleks.

I'd rather two Aleks on the council, than two Hans. One is just a hardworker, whereas the other adds sycophant to his resume in heaps.
Poetic "I know the CSM better than people who have worked with them all year" Stanziel strikes again.
You can see Hans is a sycophant simply by reading any number of his forum posts. He's probably a hard worker. But he's also a suck-up, and more interested in keeping his new pals happy than supporting good gameplay.

I'd rather have two Aleks, someone who isn't intent on apologizing for everything CCP does, than someone who works hard while mindlessly defending CCP's every misstep.
None ofthe Above
#108 - 2013-04-18 23:49:08 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
You can see Hans is a sycophant simply by reading any number of his forum posts. He's probably a hard worker. But he's also a suck-up, and more interested in keeping his new pals happy than supporting good gameplay.

I'd rather have two Aleks, someone who isn't intent on apologizing for everything CCP does, than someone who works hard while mindlessly defending CCP's every misstep.


What is wrong with you? Seriously.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

pussnheels
Viziam
#109 - 2013-04-19 12:11:10 UTC
to be honest that article is a load of ( censored) with so few voters , most of them voting very predictable you people at CCP can do whatever you want whenever you want and you know that very well

the feed back you get from your forum posts and test server probably let you learn more what the players want than 8 people elected in what is otherwise a waste of time and effort

no personal disrespect to anyone of course

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#110 - 2013-04-19 15:56:53 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Amazing how hard it is to get transparency from CSM7.


It's really easy, actually - you just haven't been paying attention every other time this has been discussed. No matter how much everyone enjoys sensationalizing the story for political purposes (CSM "activism" sells really well!), the fact remains that the CSM was told, in no uncertain terms, that POS improvements were going to happen in the summer expansion. We'd been in talks with them about the importance of POS improvements since the beginning of our term, and we'd already told them that NOT working on POS's in the summer was unacceptable no matter how you slice it. CCP admitted in the summit that while they weren't going to be doing the full modular POS system, the abysmal current state of POS's had been made clear to them and that they would be addressing it directly. Two step had his constituency to consider, and felt he was doing his responsibility to push the issue regardless of the fact that we'd already obtained the commitment from CCP that we sought.

But did the threadnought change a goddamn thing other than tie up CCP's staff for a couple days trying to calm everyone down out of panic mode? Nope, the outcome was the same. But because it felt good, and was the closest thing to the Jita-shooting spirit we'd seen in CSM6's term, it's going to continue to be put on a pedestal and worshiped as a hero story by those that believe in the "activist" model irregardless of whether it was actually the reason POS improvements made it into Odyssey.

If you think the CSM's job is to counter CCP at every step of the way, you're crazy. If Two step had wanted to go "against the wishes of CCP" he would have had to ask them NOT to work on POS's at all. There are times when CCP acquiesces and gives the CSM what its asking for, and in my opinion these are the least appropriate times to try to strongarm them further. I'd personally much rather reward CCP's cooperation than punish it. Two step meant well, and has been a tireless advocate for the players, and this doesnt reflect poorly on him in the long run.

We simply disagreed at the time on how to best handle the situation, and since than the facts of the story have continued to be heavily politicized by various groups who like to use the threadnought story to make a point.





I personally feel the 'threadnought' to press CCP for some action on POSes/Corp Roles & Permissions was democracy in action within New Eden. I am hopeful that some additional work can be done ASAP after or in the June '13 expansion to fix corp roles & permissions so that jobs can be completed in POSes by a number of corp members securely in terms of materials and POS arrays/set-ups. Might be an idea to have a voting system to gauge player opinion on what elements of EVE should be fixed next. Although that might be hijacked by the nul-centric community so probably 'threadnoughts' are our best option for getting important elements fixed.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2013-04-20 04:33:22 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
]You can see Hans is a sycophant simply by reading any number of his forum posts. He's probably a hard worker. But he's also a suck-up, and more interested in keeping his new pals happy than supporting good gameplay.


You've got Hans confused with Trebor. Hans is just non-confrontational to the extreme, which makes him a pretty poor lobbyist type (but ironically probably makes him a really nice guy outside of all of that). Trebor's the one who would sell anything and anyone out to remain in CCP's good graces.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Frying Doom
#112 - 2013-04-20 04:56:39 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
]You can see Hans is a sycophant simply by reading any number of his forum posts. He's probably a hard worker. But he's also a suck-up, and more interested in keeping his new pals happy than supporting good gameplay.


You've got Hans confused with Trebor. Hans is just non-confrontational to the extreme, which makes him a pretty poor lobbyist type (but ironically probably makes him a really nice guy outside of all of that). Trebor's the one who would sell anything and anyone out to remain in CCP's good graces.

I thought Hans quote earlier really made things clear as to why CSM7 looked so, well, lame duck.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
The minute the CSM fails to be of use to CCP is the minute it ceases to exist.


So yeah I can see why an ex-employee, a non-confrontationalist, and a sycophant, would not put up much of a fight or for that matter publicly denounce anyone that makes waves for CCP.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2013-04-20 05:03:05 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
I thought Hans quote earlier really made things clear as to why CSM7 looked so, well, lame duck..


See, your failing is that you rule out that a CSM can be both valuable to CCP AND to the players at the same time.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Frying Doom
#114 - 2013-04-20 05:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I thought Hans quote earlier really made things clear as to why CSM7 looked so, well, lame duck..


See, your failing is that you rule out that a CSM can be both valuable to CCP AND to the players at the same time.

I can see perfectly well that it can act as the voice of the players and useful to CCP.

But it cannot act as both a perfect tool for CCP and the voice of the players, you will approach points where the CSM cannot be the voice of the players and not, combat CCP.

Take Two Steps point in the POS discussion, he felt that he had to speak out about POSs to get things done, while the rest of the CSM were being valuable to CCP by denouncing his actions.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#115 - 2013-04-20 06:50:21 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I thought Hans quote earlier really made things clear as to why CSM7 looked so, well, lame duck..


See, your failing is that you rule out that a CSM can be both valuable to CCP AND to the players at the same time.


In fact, it's worth remembering that CCP, the CSM and the players all have the same high level goal: to make EVE a better game.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2013-04-20 07:26:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
In fact, it's worth remembering that CCP, the CSM and the players all have the same high level goal: to make EVE a better game.


Except CCP and CSM/Players want to make Eve a better game for some very distinct reasons. CCP desires a better game that will make money for them, while the players simply want a better game to play. Most of the time that can lead to mutual agreements, but there are certainly times where paths can diverge (POS, WiS).

It's one of the reasons I'm kind of sad that Two Step isn't running again - helpful or "hard worker" (ugh) as he may have been, when the time came, he didn't have a problem reminding CCP that the CSM is supposed to be a two way street. This also goes for any CSM that backed his threadnought as well.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#117 - 2013-04-20 08:08:20 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
In fact, it's worth remembering that CCP, the CSM and the players all have the same high level goal: to make EVE a better game.


Except CCP and CSM/Players want to make Eve a better game for some very distinct reasons. CCP desires a better game that will make money for them, while the players simply want a better game to play. Most of the time that can lead to mutual agreements, but there are certainly times where paths can diverge (POS, WiS).

It's one of the reasons I'm kind of sad that Two Step isn't running again - helpful or "hard worker" (ugh) as he may have been, when the time came, he didn't have a problem reminding CCP that the CSM is supposed to be a two way street. This also goes for any CSM that backed his threadnought as well.


Those are different motivations, not different goals. CCP might for instance say "let's get rid of CONCORD, make hi-sec PvP flagged and introduce daily quests, character classes and pets"; the CSM's job in this case is to remind them that doing this has not gone well for any new game other than the one that first introduced it, and that throwing your sole existing customer base away to try and prise out a new one from a competitor with 20 times your resources is a very risky strategy indeed.

The CSM isn't necessarily opposing CCP in this case: they're opposing a very bad idea, which isn't quite the same thing. Since enacting that stragey would actually be catastrophic for CCP, the CSM would absolutely be working for both the players and CCP.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#118 - 2013-04-21 20:12:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Blog wrote:
CCP Affinity – Content Designer

During 2012 I worked on Factional Warfare and the constant feedback and interaction we had with CSM7 helped make that feature what it is today. CSM7 have been a stellar CSM; they are determined, passionate yet very levelheaded. During FW development, they remained very involved in the ongoing work, gave good, clear and constructive feedback where necessary and, best of all, created and moderated a communication channel putting the designers involved in direct contact with the players most affected by our changes. CSM7 have been amazing both in making the voices of the player heard and interacting with CCP in a professional and meaningful way and I can’t wait to meet the new CSM 8.

Which 'most affected players' is that supposed to be .. sure as hell wasn't the FW player base, I certainly never heard of it.

Is it perhaps a reference to the threads opened in F&I/W&T where concerns over introducing highly farmable content as part of the occupancy system were either shouted down or outright ignored (FF presentation was implemented with 0 changes, hence 'ignored')?

... and the 'feature as it is today' is not something to be proud of for the most part; Crashed markets and farmed (as opposed to fought over) warzones is what was created .. if there really is pride associated with it then I guess the objective was to make Navy materials as cheap as possible and give unaffiliated (ie. no actual interest in FW) parties a way to get fat quick.

What went wrong? The CSM is not and will never be representative of the player base as long as bloc-voting is possible and as such should not be used as more than a sounding board in the most general terms. The only way is to test and use the F&I spam approach (see: Ytterbium♥Fozzies tiericide bonanza) and apply thought/common sense to the issues.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#119 - 2013-04-22 10:01:25 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
The CSM is not and will never be representative of the player base as long as bloc-voting is possible


Who were the "bloc" people in CSM 7?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016