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[Odyssey] Cruise Missiles

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Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#341 - 2013-04-18 02:18:31 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
So why bother putting the BCUs on the Drake if you aren't trying to compare actual damage? And if you're not trying to compare actual damage... why not? Is that not what actually matters? :)

-Liang


Im comparing damage application based on realistic low slot fittings for ships. Both ships have 2 BCS
Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#342 - 2013-04-18 02:24:39 UTC
Chessur wrote:

I bolded the part that is wrong. A ship moving slower has a lower velocity, allowing your missiles to apply more damage. This is true 100% of the time. TP's are only good on bonused hulls. Bellicose / vigil does it best imo Again, this still doesn't answer my questions or fix the current problems facing missile ships.


Even without Bonus TP's can increase your DMG, its a good choice to get at least 5%-20% more dmg on NPC's. Dunno about TP's in PvP, never used them in PvP except on a stealth bomber.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#343 - 2013-04-18 02:42:18 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
So why bother putting the BCUs on the Drake if you aren't trying to compare actual damage? And if you're not trying to compare actual damage... why not? Is that not what actually matters? :)

-Liang


Im comparing damage application based on realistic low slot fittings for ships. Both ships have 2 BCS


Did you use 5 launchers and current missiles by chance? Because the Raven's fully capable of applying 840 DPS to a Drake at 200km. The Phoon shouldn't be too far behind that, even if you account for its armor tank.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#344 - 2013-04-18 03:14:44 UTC
Bucca Zerodyme wrote:
Chessur wrote:

I bolded the part that is wrong. A ship moving slower has a lower velocity, allowing your missiles to apply more damage. This is true 100% of the time. TP's are only good on bonused hulls. Bellicose / vigil does it best imo Again, this still doesn't answer my questions or fix the current problems facing missile ships.


Even without Bonus TP's can increase your DMG, its a good choice to get at least 5%-20% more dmg on NPC's. Dunno about TP's in PvP, never used them in PvP except on a stealth bomber.


This is for PvP discussion only. I really don't care that much about PvE. TP's are pretty much useless unless they are on bonused hulls anyway.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#345 - 2013-04-18 03:21:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
So why bother putting the BCUs on the Drake if you aren't trying to compare actual damage? And if you're not trying to compare actual damage... why not? Is that not what actually matters? :)

-Liang


Im comparing damage application based on realistic low slot fittings for ships. Both ships have 2 BCS


Did you use 5 launchers and current missiles by chance? Because the Raven's fully capable of applying 840 DPS to a Drake at 200km. The Phoon shouldn't be too far behind that, even if you account for its armor tank.

-Liang


Raven, all level 5 skills, 2BCS, T2 launchers, CN scourge cruise missile

On paper: 460 DPS

MWD drake: 368

Raven, all level 5 skills, 2BCS, T2 launchers, Scourge Fury Cruise

On paper: 560 DPS

MWD drake: 232 DPS

That is with the old raven and old missiles. But you get the point. Even with the 30% damage increase (assuming that you could actually apply that with the 10% decrease in explosion velocity- CN cruise raven is only doing 368 X 30% = 478 DPS (which is not all going to be applied anyway thanks to the decreased explo velocity.)

Your numbers are crazy, or if they are real require so much low slot / rig space that its not viable for any normal PvP situation- and certainly not for solo / small gang.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#346 - 2013-04-18 03:29:04 UTC
You PVP fit your Ravens with 2 BCUs? Well, I think I found the ******* problem.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#347 - 2013-04-18 04:14:43 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
You PVP fit your Ravens with 2 BCUs? Well, I think I found the ******* problem.

-Liang


I don't PvP fit ravens in the first place. Phoon could be possible, but any more than 2BCS and the stacking penalty is pretty nasty at that point. Better to place something else in most cases.
Curb Your Enthusiasm
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#348 - 2013-04-18 05:22:44 UTC
shut up moron you're getting owned here
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#349 - 2013-04-18 06:01:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Chessur wrote:
Bucca Zerodyme wrote:
Chessur wrote:

I bolded the part that is wrong. A ship moving slower has a lower velocity, allowing your missiles to apply more damage. This is true 100% of the time. TP's are only good on bonused hulls. Bellicose / vigil does it best imo Again, this still doesn't answer my questions or fix the current problems facing missile ships.


Even without Bonus TP's can increase your DMG, its a good choice to get at least 5%-20% more dmg on NPC's. Dunno about TP's in PvP, never used them in PvP except on a stealth bomber.


This is for PvP discussion only. I really don't care that much about PvE. TP's are pretty much useless unless they are on bonused hulls anyway.

37.5% signature rad increase is useless ? sure....

well tp optimal should be increased and its activation time decreased ,but thats all
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2013-04-18 06:59:50 UTC
Fonac wrote:
What does signature resolution mean?
Signature resolution is a weapon's "anchor point" for signature radius calculations. When numbers on the weapon rely on the target's signature radius (such as tracking), then when the target's signature radius is equal to the weapon's signature resolution, the number is the listed value. For instance, a large turret has a signature resolution of 400m. If it fires at a target with a 400m signature radius, it gets 100% of the listed tracking value. If it fires at a target with a 2000m signature radius, it gets 500% of listed tracking.

I don't think missiles use signature resolution.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#351 - 2013-04-18 07:15:11 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Well here is my feed back coupled with some math so i hope you enjoy:

Old phoon, no implants, no heat, no rigs, Lv5 skills, T2 launchers, CN cruise.

DPS: 384

Now lets look at damage application. All ships shown have level 5 skills, are unfit except for an MWD. No other effects

Merlin: 22 DPS
Thrasher: 43 DPS
Thorax: 78 DPS
Brutix: 236 DPS
Drake: 307 DPS
Tempest: 343 DPS (Still not applying full damage to an MWD BS) Please explain to me why the proposed changes include a 10% decrease to explosion velocity? Cruise missile already cannot apply full DPS to an MWD BS.


Er, why are you giving feedback based on the old Typhoon firing old cruise? This is stupid and you should feel stupid. A dual BCS Typhoon will deal 605 DPS with CN. Seriously, put some thought into what you're doing and you'll spot stupid mistakes like this.

Chessur wrote:
Because the facts of the matter are this: Most ships carry an MWD. And while they do increase signature, this is not nearly enough to offset the fact that the same increase seen in the ship speed when compared to missile explosion velocity- throws damage application out the window. As I have stated before: If you increase the target velocity and the target signature radius by the same margin, target speed and explosion velocity play a much much larger role in deciding applied DPS to target than the same increase in explosion radius / target radius.


No, you don't understand the missile damage formula. If you double both a target's speed and its sig, applied missile damage will not change. MWDs give a 500% sig bloom and a roughly 625% speed increase, but large ships in particularly take a long time to accelerate up to the critical sig bloom/speed increase ratio of 1.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#352 - 2013-04-18 07:29:54 UTC
Bucca Zerodyme wrote:
[quote=Debora Tsung]
Because there is no Pirate-BS who primary use Torps and the Golem has no dmg bonus for torps. Dont compare ships from different classes.


Doesn't matter. maybe You should've read the part I quoted, too.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Shingorash
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#353 - 2013-04-18 07:41:56 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
You PVP fit your Ravens with 2 BCUs? Well, I think I found the ******* problem.

-Liang


I don't PvP fit ravens in the first place. Phoon could be possible, but any more than 2BCS and the stacking penalty is pretty nasty at that point. Better to place something else in most cases.


Its 3 for bcu's to be fair, as it is for most modules.
Shingorash
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#354 - 2013-04-18 07:45:10 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
So why bother putting the BCUs on the Drake if you aren't trying to compare actual damage? And if you're not trying to compare actual damage... why not? Is that not what actually matters? :)

-Liang


Im comparing damage application based on realistic low slot fittings for ships. Both ships have 2 BCS


Did you use 5 launchers and current missiles by chance? Because the Raven's fully capable of applying 840 DPS to a Drake at 200km. The Phoon shouldn't be too far behind that, even if you account for its armor tank.

-Liang


Raven, all level 5 skills, 2BCS, T2 launchers, CN scourge cruise missile

On paper: 460 DPS

MWD drake: 368

Raven, all level 5 skills, 2BCS, T2 launchers, Scourge Fury Cruise

On paper: 560 DPS

MWD drake: 232 DPS

That is with the old raven and old missiles. But you get the point. Even with the 30% damage increase (assuming that you could actually apply that with the 10% decrease in explosion velocity- CN cruise raven is only doing 368 X 30% = 478 DPS (which is not all going to be applied anyway thanks to the decreased explo velocity.)

Your numbers are crazy, or if they are real require so much low slot / rig space that its not viable for any normal PvP situation- and certainly not for solo / small gang.


This is what rigor and flare rigs are for, I suggest you use them.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#355 - 2013-04-18 07:58:07 UTC
Chessur wrote:
TP's are pretty much useless unless they are on bonused hulls anyway.


Good lord, just stop posting right now, please.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#356 - 2013-04-18 08:38:18 UTC
Interesting. I will have to think about it some - might be actually good enough to consider switching from using Tengus to Navy Ravens with cruise missiles.

Currently its not worth it as the raw damage difference is so small its entirely negated by the limited effectivity of cruise missiles against smaller than BC size NPC's. But with the RoF increase, Alpha increase and increased missile speed ... will have to test it how much does the increased missile exp radius affect cruise missile effectivity in PvE against cruiser and frigate size rats.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
SongSinger
BlitzStrike
#357 - 2013-04-18 09:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: SongSinger
here are approximate figures, raven +4 caldari bcu 1rigor 2flare, Implants gp-805 tn-905
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/damagefromraven.jpg/

ps I do not know how to paste a screenshot directly
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#358 - 2013-04-18 10:16:27 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
You PVP fit your Ravens with 2 BCUs? Well, I think I found the ******* problem.

-Liang


Lol you fit PvP Ravens. Hahaha.

-Karah
Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#359 - 2013-04-18 10:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bucca Zerodyme
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Fonac wrote:
What does signature resolution mean?

Signature resolution is a weapon's "anchor point" for signature radius calculations. When numbers on the weapon rely on the target's signature radius (such as tracking), then when the target's signature radius is equal to the weapon's signature resolution, the number is the listed value. For instance, a large turret has a signature resolution of 400m. If it fires at a target with a 400m signature radius, it gets 100% of the listed tracking value. If it fires at a target with a 2000m signature radius, it gets 500% of listed tracking.

I don't think missiles use signature resolution.


See for yourself, this how missiles damage is calculated:

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(sig/Er, 1, (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)))

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile

DRF is a value based on missile type which is visible on the charge info page:
Rocket = 3.0
Light Missile = 2.8
Assault Missile = 4.5
Heavy Missile = 3.2
Torpedo = 5.0
Cruise Missile = 4.5
Citadel Torpedo = 5.5
Citadel Cruise Missile = 4.5

Obviously its good to use TP, it increase your DPS a lot. Explosion velocity increase your DPS too, but the primary dmg indicator is the signature of the ship.
Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#360 - 2013-04-18 10:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Bucca Zerodyme
Carniflex wrote:
Interesting. I will have to think about it some - might be actually good enough to consider switching from using Tengus to Navy Ravens with cruise missiles.

Currently its not worth it as the raw damage difference is so small its entirely negated by the limited effectivity of cruise missiles against smaller than BC size NPC's. But with the RoF increase, Alpha increase and increased missile speed ... will have to test it how much does the increased missile exp radius affect cruise missile effectivity in PvE against cruiser and frigate size rats.


use flare and rigor rigs + TP, then you do full dmg on cruisers too with previous cruise.