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Did the Navy Raven just unseat the Machariel as King of Level 4s?
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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-04-17 20:12:02 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Eh, have some numbers. Fit is 3x CN BCU; 4 would obviously help. No painter; assuming a MJD fit. Rigs are 2x rigor IIs 1 flare I. Targets are Angel and Gurista to get a range of possible values.

738 fury cruise / .95 RoF increase = 777

777 * 1.25 damage increase = 971

2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.

explosion velocity 100.05

explosion radius 247.68 * 1.1 increase = 272.45


target: Gist General

sig: 320
orbit velocity: 175

final damage: 916


target: Pith Massacrer

sig: 410
orbit velocity: 140

final damage: 971


target: Gistum Marauder

sig: 120
orbit velocity: 225

final damage: 299


target: Pithum Eraser

sig: 155
orbit velocity: 180

final damage: 462

==========================

606 CN cruise / .95 RoF increase = 638

638 * 1.25 damage increase = 798

2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.

explosion velocity 119.02

explosion radius 144 * 1.1 increase = 158.4


target: Gist General

sig: 320
orbit velocity: 175

final damage: 798


target: Pith Massacrer

sig: 410
orbit velocity: 140

final damage: 798


target: Gistum Marauder

sig: 120
orbit velocity: 225

final damage: 356


target: Pithum Eraser

sig: 155
orbit velocity: 180

final damage: 543


target: Gistii Impaler

sig: 35
orbit velocity: 275

final damage: 101


target: Pithi Demolisher

sig: 38
orbit velocity: 220

final damage: 132

==========================

527 precision cruise / .95 RoF increase = 555

555 * 1.25 damage increase = 694

2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.

explosion velocity 143.175

explosion radius 129.6 * 1.1 increase = 142.56


target: Gistum Marauder

sig: 120
orbit velocity: 225

final damage: 439


target: Pithum Eraser

sig: 155
orbit velocity: 180

final damage: 624


target: Gistii Impaler

sig: 35
orbit velocity: 275

final damage: 153


target: Pithi Demolisher

sig: 38
orbit velocity: 220

final damage: 185

==========================

Summary: I'd say this is a pretty significant boost to the CNR, but I'd still take a Machariel. The CNR is getting way more competitive though, and if you're somewhat able to manage range and snipe frigs at range with sentries it could be a very valid mission runner -- much more so than today.

If -- and it's obviously a big, speculative if -- the fleet phoon gets modeled on the CNR with the new Typhoon bonus it might rip things apart in a serious way.



Awesome numbers, if you still have the sheet, what happens if you add two painters....?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#22 - 2013-04-17 23:22:06 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Awesome numbers, if you still have the sheet, what happens if you add two painters....?


Ok, new set of numbers. Fit is the same except we're now assuming a fourth CN BCU and a pair of painters; numbers listed will be damage without painter, damage with 1 painter, and damage with 2 painters. Painters are max skilled PWNAGE, so 37.5% sig increase.

786 fury cruise / .95 RoF increase = 827

777 * 1.25 damage increase = 1034

2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.

explosion velocity 100.05

explosion radius 247.68 * 1.1 increase = 272.45


target: Gist General

sig: 320
orbit velocity: 175

final damage: 720
1 PWNAGE: 962
2 PWNAGE: 1034 (max)


target: Pith Massacrer

sig: 410
orbit velocity: 140

final damage: 1034; no painters needed


target: Gistum Marauder

sig: 120
orbit velocity: 225

final damage: 235
1 PWNAGE: 314
2 PWNAGE: 406


target: Pithum Eraser

sig: 155
orbit velocity: 180

final damage: 364
1 PWNAGE: 485
2 PWNAGE: 627

==========================

646 CN cruise / .95 RoF increase = 680

638 * 1.25 damage increase = 850

2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.

explosion velocity 119.02

explosion radius 144 * 1.1 increase = 158.4


target: Gist General

sig: 320
orbit velocity: 175

final damage: 850 (no painters needed)


target: Pith Massacrer

sig: 410
orbit velocity: 140

final damage: 850 (no painters needed)


target: Gistum Marauder

sig: 120
orbit velocity: 225

final damage: 379
1 PWNAGE: 502
2 PWNAGE: 644


target: Pithum Eraser

sig: 155
orbit velocity: 180

final damage: 579
1 PWNAGE: 767
2 PWNAGE: 850 (max damage)


target: Gistii Impaler

sig: 35
orbit velocity: 275

final damage: 107
1 PWNAGE: 142
2 PWNAGE: 182


target: Pithi Demolisher

sig: 38
orbit velocity: 220

final damage: 186
1 PWNAGE: 186
2 PWNAGE: 238

==========================

562 precision cruise / .95 RoF increase = 591

555 * 1.25 damage increase = 739

2 rigor IIs, 1 flare I.

explosion velocity 143.175

explosion radius 129.6 * 1.1 increase = 142.56


target: Gistum Marauder

sig: 120
orbit velocity: 225

final damage: 467
1 PWNAGE: 590
2 PWNAGE: 726


target: Pithum Eraser

sig: 155
orbit velocity: 180

final damage: 664
1 PWNAGE: 739 (max damage)


target: Gistii Impaler

sig: 35
orbit velocity: 275

final damage: 163
1 PWNAGE: 206
2 PWNAGE: 253


target: Pithi Demolisher

sig: 38
orbit velocity: 220

final damage: 197
1 PWNAGE: 258
2 PWNAGE: 317

==========================
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-04-18 03:10:57 UTC
These are orbit speeds. Approach speed is twice that, and vector doesn't help unlike with guns. You're not gonna wait for rats to be in orbit before shooting them.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-04-18 06:38:38 UTC
Excellent stuff. Much appreciated.

CNR is shaping up nicely indeed when one factors in pure damage choices
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2013-04-18 07:06:27 UTC
A little bit of nitpicking...
sabre906 wrote:
It's just like how they decided Rage Torps needed even larger exp radius too for some reason this past expansion. Figures.

While the entire forum is well aware of how you can't hear people because of how awesome you are, you should really stop ignoring that explosion radius of rages actually lowered due to changes to GMP.

sabre906 wrote:
The exp radius nerf is in the wrong direction. Cruise don't need more paper dps, it needs better applied dps.

Well, most of the time they will do more applied DPS in the end, just not that much.

OT: Probably not, at least until changes to hulls. Mach still can blap frigs, apply enough DPS and burn to gates/cans/position much faster. As a side note, gunnery skills are probably still more useful than missile ones, especially when it comes to training T2 cruises vs T2 autocanons...

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#26 - 2013-04-18 10:31:50 UTC
New Garde Domi > all

.
DSpite Culhach
#27 - 2013-04-18 11:06:03 UTC
I'm a bit fuzzy when it comes to the equations numbers.

As far as you guys can reason, would this also mean that a Golem would now officially be viable with Cruise Missiles?

Equivalent of 8 normal turrets, ability to use faction/T2 missiles all the time because only using half as much, and targer painter bonuses with the new extra Cruise damage should pop out much more favourable numbers ... no?

I do fully understand that its inherently a Torp boat, but it does sound like this change would bring the damage output well into a usable range now.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
hellcane
Never Back Down
#28 - 2013-04-18 12:22:03 UTC
Except that NPCs use defender missiles.
Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#29 - 2013-04-18 16:35:06 UTC
hellcane wrote:
Except that NPCs use defender missiles.


They do. However 11,000m/s missiles might negate that some.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#30 - 2013-04-18 18:42:16 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
These are orbit speeds. Approach speed is twice that, and vector doesn't help unlike with guns. You're not gonna wait for rats to be in orbit before shooting them.


Trust me, I've thought of that. And this is what came of it. Approach speed = pseudo-MWD = sig bloom = about the same damage as orbit speed.

Barrogh Habalu wrote:
A little bit of nitpicking...
sabre906 wrote:
It's just like how they decided Rage Torps needed even larger exp radius too for some reason this past expansion. Figures.

While the entire forum is well aware of how you can't hear people because of how awesome you are, you should really stop ignoring that explosion radius of rages actually lowered due to changes to GMP.


I've given up. I could copypasta the math every time he makes that claim, but what's the point?
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#31 - 2013-04-18 19:19:56 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
would this also mean that a Golem would now officially be viable with Cruise Missiles?


Not sure about that, but CNR or a "new Navy" Phoon will outdamage Golem for sure.

My guess if CCP introduces new "Navy" Phoon it will be the best missile platform, unless Torps get a significant buff.

Whatever.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-04-18 20:41:46 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
DSpite Culhach wrote:
would this also mean that a Golem would now officially be viable with Cruise Missiles?


Not sure about that, but CNR or a "new Navy" Phoon will outdamage Golem for sure.

My guess if CCP introduces new "Navy" Phoon it will be the best missile platform, unless Torps get a significant buff.


If only they'd give the CNR the 8th launcher it deserves.

I'd trade a low for it tbh
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-04-18 22:02:14 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:
DSpite Culhach wrote:
would this also mean that a Golem would now officially be viable with Cruise Missiles?


Not sure about that, but CNR or a "new Navy" Phoon will outdamage Golem for sure.

My guess if CCP introduces new "Navy" Phoon it will be the best missile platform, unless Torps get a significant buff.


If only they'd give the CNR the 8th launcher it deserves.

I'd trade a low for it tbh


You can always buy a State Issue for a gazillion isk.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-04-19 08:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Starlight Kouvo wrote:
I ran a lot of Lvl 4's in a Scorpion Navy Issue with pretty much max missile skills and cruise missiles and while it was pretty good at battlecruisers and up, anything smaller was just a no go except for destroyers. I found I had to run a 2nd ship (Drake) to kill frigates and cruisers.

The paper dps just does not equate to mission dps I found.

I have now switched to a Nightmare and even with only T1 Large Pulse or Faction Large Pulse it has no problems clearing level 4's solo and much quicker than the Scorpion and can pop frigates in 1 to 3 shots up to 60km away which the SNI could never do with cruise missiles.

Missiles are definitely great as a starting character for PVE.



You did something wrong then, I get all nomal frigs in 1 volley, and elets in 2 or three volleys, in my SNI.

but the comparisation between the Mach and CNR is made on wrong number.

The CNR has range but needs to change ammo, for cruisers and Frigs, where the Mach needs to fly to it's opponents.

and If you take money and training time in acount, I think the CNR is already quite an good ship.

Take the comming Cruise buff, I'm quite intrested as in what time you are going to win back your investment and actualy start making more with the Mach.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-04-19 10:49:25 UTC
Billy Kidd wrote:
Did the Navy Raven just unseat the Machariel as King of Level 4s?
Lol

I fly a CNR. I don't know if the CNR will be the new King, but the fact that people are even thinking this way... makes me very happy.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-04-19 12:18:51 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Billy Kidd wrote:
Did the Navy Raven just unseat the Machariel as King of Level 4s?
Lol

I fly a CNR. I don't know if the CNR will be the new King, but the fact that people are even thinking this way... makes me very happy.


I like my CNR aswell, but the new Typhoon.. if the Phoon fleet issue will get similar bonus and a 7th launcher.. harhar.. Pirate
Shield tanked phoon with 8 lowslots?.. lots of space for potential low-slot dmg application modules..
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