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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#361 - 2013-04-17 23:53:19 UTC
Quote:
Exactly

What I'm saying is that the problem of beams is deeper than only PG and cap use, and that I'm indeed afraid that if tachyon (not beams) are too easy to fit or don't use enough cap, then they will be plain better than railguns per se. Because tachyon caracteristics are above those of railguns except for PG and cap use.

Not only gallente railgun BS would be threaten (they already aren't that good anyway), but the rokh too ; because the abaddon is higly capable of reaching the level of tank of the rokh, so if tachyon are better than 425mm railguns, the only remaining strength of the rokh wil be shield buffer tank strength against armor buffer ones, minus range and dps...

The problem of beams lie in their effective range being sandwiched between pulse range and railgun range. Their isn't any range for them to live in unless you rebalance the link between pulse and railguns.


And, as I have said earlier, you are doing nothing but protecting your own interests, and are not acting in the interest of balance.

As I have said numerous times, and you have repeatedly ignored, each and every long range weapon could use a balance pass, and they just did it with Cruise Missiles in fact too. So raise your own cause, stop vainly trying to trample ours.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#362 - 2013-04-17 23:59:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Exactly

What I'm saying is that the problem of beams is deeper than only PG and cap use, and that I'm indeed afraid that if tachyon (not beams) are too easy to fit or don't use enough cap, then they will be plain better than railguns per se. Because tachyon caracteristics are above those of railguns except for PG and cap use.

Not only gallente railgun BS would be threaten (they already aren't that good anyway), but the rokh too ; because the abaddon is higly capable of reaching the level of tank of the rokh, so if tachyon are better than 425mm railguns, the only remaining strength of the rokh wil be shield buffer tank strength against armor buffer ones, minus range and dps...

The problem of beams lie in their effective range being sandwiched between pulse range and railgun range. Their isn't any range for them to live in unless you rebalance the link between pulse and railguns.


And, as I have said earlier, you are doing nothing but protecting your own interests, and are not acting in the interest of balance.

As I have said numerous times, and you have repeatedly ignored, each and every long range weapon could use a balance pass, and they just did it with Cruise Missiles in fact too. So raise your own cause, stop vainly trying to trample ours.


It does feel like your trying to make sure Amarr have difficulties in order to keep what even you admit is a tenuous superiority at best. Of course each race wants to be better. But Amarr don't feel equal, especially when we must give up two or three slots on our ship specifically to get our guns running, not including heat sinks or ewar or drone support or armor.


If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#363 - 2013-04-18 00:09:53 UTC
Ruze wrote:
It does feel like your trying to make sure Amarr have difficulties in order to keep what even you admit is a tenuous superiority at best. Of course each race wants to be better. But Amarr don't feel equal, especially when we must give up two or three slots on our ship specifically to get our guns running, not including heat sinks or ewar or drone support or armor.

I only would like to keep things as balanced as they are.

Amarr don't feel equal because they'd like to play in the ground of someone else. That's this someone's ground I'm trying to protect here.

Amarr are already the best between 15 and 60km because of pulse and scorch. Do they need to see their superiority range increased, inevitably at the expense of another ship/weapon system ?
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#364 - 2013-04-18 00:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruze
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ruze wrote:
It does feel like your trying to make sure Amarr have difficulties in order to keep what even you admit is a tenuous superiority at best. Of course each race wants to be better. But Amarr don't feel equal, especially when we must give up two or three slots on our ship specifically to get our guns running, not including heat sinks or ewar or drone support or armor.

I only would like to keep things as balanced as they are.

Amarr don't feel equal because they'd like to play in the ground of someone else. That's this someone's ground I'm trying to protect here.

Amarr are already the best between 15 and 60km because of pulse and scorch. Do they need to see their superiority range increased, inevitably at the expense of another ship/weapon system ?


So are you trying to imply that, because our pulse lasers using one crystal make us good fighters at the ranges you mentioned, we aren't entitled to be able to use our other weapon systems effectively, even on ships designed for those weapon systems, because Gallente are already there?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#365 - 2013-04-18 00:17:02 UTC
Ruze wrote:
So are you trying to imply that, because our pulse lasers using one crystal make us good fighters at the ranges you mentioned, we aren't entitled to be able to use our other weapon systems effectively, even on ships designed for those weapon systems, because Gallente are already there?

Gallente aren't there. The Rokh is. But yes, that's it. What is the alternative ? Reducing scorch range ; increasing beams range (but not tachyon), or both. Both being arguably the best option I guess. Or we need to find another niche for beams or railguns, because they overlap.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#366 - 2013-04-18 00:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruze
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ruze wrote:
So are you trying to imply that, because our pulse lasers using one crystal make us good fighters at the ranges you mentioned, we aren't entitled to be able to use our other weapon systems effectively, even on ships designed for those weapon systems, because Gallente are already there?

Gallente aren't there. The Rokh is. But yes, that's it. What is the alternative ? Reducing scorch range ; increasing beams range (but not tachyon), or both. Both being arguably the best option I guess. Or we need to find another niche for beams or railguns, because they overlap.


I do believe they overlap, but they aren't identical. Even if you reduced the average use of capacitor (remember, if you take the whole ship into account, we are at a significant loss to do the exact same things that railgun ship can do while they're firing away), they'd still have their roles and capabilities within their races, and be fairly independent of each other.

What we're struggling with is that, even though the base performance between the two weapons is so similar, the impact that is had on the rest of the ship in order to get to that base performance is RADICALLY skewed.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#367 - 2013-04-18 00:25:27 UTC
Ruze mate .. give up the on the obvious Gallante troll ...
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#368 - 2013-04-18 00:26:05 UTC
Ruze wrote:
I do believe they overlap, but they aren't identical. Even if you reduced the average use of capacitor (remember, if you take the whole ship into account, we are at a significant loss to do the exact same things that railgun ship can do while they're firing away), they'd still have their roles and capabilities within their races, and be fairly independent of each other.

What we're struggling with is that, even though the base performance between the two weapons is so similar, the impact that is had on the rest of the ship in order to get to that base performance is RADICALLY skewed.

Damage is a main consideration of course, but that's not the only thing with turrets : tracking is still to the (great) advantage of beams, as is the insta swaping cristals. Even if the dps at range was the same between beams and railguns, the tracking of beams would still make them a lot better is that wasn't for the cap use and fitting.

Also note that I'm not against the adjustments made here.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#369 - 2013-04-18 00:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Regolis
Amarr

Abaddon Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6375 / 1250s / 5.1
Apocalypse Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 7000 / 1002s / 6.99
Armageddon Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6200 / 1087s / 5.7

Gallente

Hyperion Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8
Megathron Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 5800 / 1087s / 5.02
Dominix Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6000 / 1087s / 5.51

Minmatar

Maelstrom Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6000 / 1250s / 4.8
Tempest Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 5400 / 1154s / 4.68
Typhoon Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 5400 / 1087s / 4.97

Caldari

Rokh Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6000 / 1250s / 4.8
Raven Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 5500 / 1160s / 4.74
Scorpion Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 5500 / 1087s / 5.06

Amarr Weapons

Beams
Dual Heavy Beams I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 35 GJ / 7.20s / 4.86GJ/s
Mega Beams I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 65 GJ / 9.00s / 7.22GJ/s
Tachyon Beams I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 95 GJ / 12.50s / 7.6GJ/s

Pulse
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 25 GJ / 6.08s / 4.11GJ/s
Mega Pulse Laser I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 40 GJ / 7.88s / 5.08GJ/s


Gallente Weapons

Blasters
Electron Blaster Cannon I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 5.88 GJ / 4.5s / 1.3GJ/s
Ion Blaster Cannon I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 9.8 GJ / 6.75s / 1.45GJ/s
Neutron Blaster Cannon I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 12.74 GJ / 5.87s / 1.61GJ/s

Railguns
Dual 250mm Railgun I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 10.5 GJ / 5.85s / 1.79GJ/s
350mm Railgun I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 15.4 GJ / 7.31s / 2.1GJ/s
450mm Railgun I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 21 GJ / 9.56s / 2.19GJ/s

Reposting this yet again so the data isn't buried by trolling ...
The number are pretty honest and brutal to Amarr if you're looking..
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#370 - 2013-04-18 00:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ruze wrote:
I do believe they overlap, but they aren't identical. Even if you reduced the average use of capacitor (remember, if you take the whole ship into account, we are at a significant loss to do the exact same things that railgun ship can do while they're firing away), they'd still have their roles and capabilities within their races, and be fairly independent of each other.

What we're struggling with is that, even though the base performance between the two weapons is so similar, the impact that is had on the rest of the ship in order to get to that base performance is RADICALLY skewed.

Damage is a main consideration of course, but that's not the only thing with turrets : tracking is still to the (great) advantage of beams, as is the insta swaping cristals. Even if the dps at range was the same between beams and railguns, the tracking of beams would still make them a lot better is that wasn't for the cap use and fitting.

Also note that I'm not against the adjustments made here.



I'll just leave this here.

Regolis wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

That is homogenisation : when all things are equal everywhere with different colors. That's not balance.



Mega Beam Laser 1
40 km range
16 falloff
65 GJ power usage
9.00 rate of fire
3.0 damage modifier
tracking 0.0153125 rad/sec
FITTING
55 CPU
3250 Powergrid



425mm Railgun 1
48 km range
24 km falloff
21 GJ power usage
9.56 rate of fire
3.025 damage modifier
0.01010625 rad/sec
FITTING
67 CPU
2200 Powergrid


I'm sorry .. what did you say again ? I couldn't hear you from the already obvious homogenization...



So yeah, .005 tracking is what you are arguing justifies 300% more cap use, and ~50% more powergrid? Oh, and 16 km less range, too, as well as the fact that you have long range ammo worth loading (radio is beyond worthless). Yeah, not buying it, and increasingly less people are, judging by these threads.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#371 - 2013-04-18 00:40:48 UTC
For information, for large turret, 0,005 rad/s = 50% tracking = 2 TC w/ tracking script.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#372 - 2013-04-18 00:44:06 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ruze wrote:
I do believe they overlap, but they aren't identical. Even if you reduced the average use of capacitor (remember, if you take the whole ship into account, we are at a significant loss to do the exact same things that railgun ship can do while they're firing away), they'd still have their roles and capabilities within their races, and be fairly independent of each other.

What we're struggling with is that, even though the base performance between the two weapons is so similar, the impact that is had on the rest of the ship in order to get to that base performance is RADICALLY skewed.

Damage is a main consideration of course, but that's not the only thing with turrets : tracking is still to the (great) advantage of beams, as is the insta swaping cristals. Even if the dps at range was the same between beams and railguns, the tracking of beams would still make them a lot better is that wasn't for the cap use and fitting.

Also note that I'm not against the adjustments made here.


Also, damage types is a huge consideration (or the lack thereof, and obvious natural tanking that armor has to our two damage types). Oh, and all t2 or faction crystals degrade, meaning your likely to need a reload.

That advantage you mention isn't that great. I like hard stats, so let's please list a comparison:



Fitting:

425 mm Railgun / CPU / PG / Activation Cost / Rate of Fire / Cap Per Second :
67 tf / 2,200 MW / 21 GJ / 9.56 s / 2.2 GJ/s

Tachyon Beam Laser / CPU / PG / Activation Cost / Rate of Fire / Cap Per Second :
60 tf / 3750 MW / 95 GJ / 12.5s / 7.6 GJ/s

So from the pure numbers, the Railgun uses 7 more CPU to fit, 1,550 less powergrid, 74 less cap, fires 2.94 seconds quicker, and averages 5.4 GJ/s less.



Damage Potential:

425 mm Railgun / Falloff / Tracking Speed / Optimal Range / Damage Modifier / Sig Res :
24 km / 0.01010625 rad/sec / 48 km / 3.025x / 400 m

Tachyon Beam Laser / Falloff / Tracking Speed / Optimal Range / Damage Modifier / Sig Res :
20 km / 0.0139205 rad/sec / 44 km / 4.5x / 400 M

And again from pure numbers, Railguns have a longer falloff by 4km, have a slower tracking speed by 0.00381425 rad/sec, have a higher optimal range by 4km, a lower base damage output by 1.475x, and an identical sig resolution.



Taking these numbers into consideration, I don't see how the Tachyon has such a "great" advantage. Higher base damage and tracking speed combined with 7 less CPU to fit, while the railgun beats it in EVERY SINGLE OTHER CATEGORY (except signature resolution).

And if you think that our MASSIVE increase in fitting and usage requirements are not enough of a penalty to offset that .004 extra tracking speed, or our whopping 1.475x more base damage? Especially when those requirements also effect every other element of the ship, not just our damage dealing capabilities?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#373 - 2013-04-18 00:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Also adding to the above (well, the above before the immediate above, which was posted while I was making this):

Tachyon Beam Laser I (before rebalance proposal):
44 km range
20 km falloff
95(!) GJ activation cost
12.5s rate of fire
4.5 damage modifier
0.01392 rad/sec tracking
60 CPU
3750 PG
Cap use is thus 7.6 GJ/s, damage mod/ROF is 0.36
Damage/Cap is 0.047

For the 425, cap use is 2.2 GJ/s, damage mod/ROF is 0.316x
Damage/cap is 0.144

Tachyon Beam Laser I (after rebalance proposal):
44 km range
20 km falloff
76 GJ activation cost
12.5s rate of fire
4.5 damage modifier
0.01392 rad/sec tracking
60 CPU
3375 PG
Cap use is 6.08 GJ/s, damage mod/ROF is still 0.36
Damage/cap is now 0.059

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#374 - 2013-04-18 00:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
dps difference is a little offset by firing rate, though you are not geting the measure of the values here. Tracking difference is 40%. Dps difference is 14%. The dps difference completely offset the range bonus unless you are at max range, which is above 150km, hence irrelevant. At closer ranges though, that's a no match.

Damage type is not a strong point of railgun BTW : ALL T2 ships tank either thermal or kinetic, and half the time, both.

PS : not to mention the difference in PG and capacitor of the ships, already listed, which offset a part of lasers drawbacks.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#375 - 2013-04-18 00:54:44 UTC
Since I am posting on my phone and cannot do it myself, can you post the treatment above for Mega Pulse Lasers as well?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#376 - 2013-04-18 00:54:49 UTC
As an aside, if we're supposed to treat Tachyons as an alpha weapon and Mega Beams as a DPS weapon (putting our foot in the door on the artillery and the railguns, without kicking either one off their throne), the new cap use on the tach's isn't a bad thing. The fitting requirements are still absurd, but the cap use per shot wouldn't be.

But how does the alpha damage stack up? And is alpha something Amarr can do, with our dps being so limited to two damage types that are only good against shields?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#377 - 2013-04-18 00:55:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Since I am posting on my phone and cannot do it myself, can you post the treatment above for Mega Pulse Lasers as well?


Sure. I'll do Mega's and Arty, since I was wondering what they would come out to anyhow.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#378 - 2013-04-18 01:02:54 UTC
425 mm Railgun / CPU / PG / Activation Cost / Rate of Fire / Cap Per Second :
67 tf / 2,200 MW / 21 GJ / 9.56 s / 2.2 GJ/s

Mega Beam Laser / CPU / PG / Activation Cost / Rate of Fire / Cap Per Second :
55 tf / 3,250 MW / 65 GJ / 9.00 s / 7.22 GJ/s

Tachyon Beam Laser / CPU / PG / Activation Cost / Rate of Fire / Cap Per Second :
60 tf / 3750 MW / 95 GJ / 12.5s / 7.6 GJ/s

1400mm Howitzer Artillery / CPU / PG / Activation Cost / Rate of Fire / Cap Per Second :
45 tf / 3,250 MW / O GJ / 40.16s / 0 GJ/s


425 mm Railgun / Falloff / Tracking Speed / Optimal Range / Damage Modifier / Sig Res :
24 km / 0.01010625 rad/sec / 48 km / 3.025x / 400 m

Mega Beam Laser / Falloff / Tracking Speed / Optimal Range / Damage Modifier / Sig Res :
16 km / 0.0153125 rad/sec / 40 km / 3x / 400m

Tachyon Beam Laser / Falloff / Tracking Speed / Optimal Range / Damage Modifier / Sig Res :
20 km / 0.0139205 rad/sec / 44 km / 4.5x / 400m

1400mm Howitzer Artillery / Falloff / Tracking Speed / Optimal Range / Damage Modifier / Sig Res :
35 km / 0.009 rad/sec / 40 km / 10.672x / 400m

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#379 - 2013-04-18 01:06:30 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
dps difference is a little offset by firing rate, though you are not geting the measure of the values here. Tracking difference is 40%. Dps difference is 14%. The dps difference completely offset the range bonus unless you are at max range, which is above 150km, hence irrelevant. At closer ranges though, that's a no match.

The capacitor difference is 180%.
The PG difference is 60%.
Stop only using numbers that support your argument.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#380 - 2013-04-18 01:16:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
dps difference is a little offset by firing rate, though you are not geting the measure of the values here. Tracking difference is 40%. Dps difference is 14%. The dps difference completely offset the range bonus unless you are at max range, which is above 150km, hence irrelevant. At closer ranges though, that's a no match.

The capacitor difference is 180%.
The PG difference is 60%.
Stop only using numbers that support your argument.

Dps and tracking actually translate to real thing. When skills add 2% per level of damage, that give you an idea of the scale of dps difference between weapons. On the same idea, modules like tracking computers give percentages of tracking or range.

Whereas cap use and PG are completely dependant of the hull you mount the weapons on. Even worse, you could have 90% of your grid used by turrets and still be able to fit whatever you want, because modules use fixed numbers of PG. Hence, a ship with more PG benefit more from PG skills and modules than another one. Capacitor depends on what you do with your ship : gallente ships for example are prone to active tank, and their mid slots asks usualy for cap too, whereas amarr ships are prone to buffer tank, with less mid slots. Also, gallente and minmatar ships are more prone to use their prop mod than amarr or caldari. Hence, cap use and PG percentages mean nothing.

I'm sorry that math don't support your "tachyon are not that good" thesis in this particular case. Cap use is certainly huge on beam, and I didn't know that beams used such a close amount of cap than tachyon, but you will need to go through ships and fitting to prove anything related to capacitor use or PG.