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Dev Blog: CSM 8 Elections--CCP on the impact of the Council

First post First post
Author
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#41 - 2013-04-17 23:42:49 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
As the CSM is the Voice of the players, don't you think endorsements from players would be more relevant?

This has been CSM7s biggest failing, they forgot who they actually work for.


You really DON'T have a clue as to how this all works, do you. Roll

The minute the CSM fails to be of use to CCP is the minute it ceases to exist. The more practical benefit we provide the company, the longer we preserve our ability to operate and serve as the voice of the people. CSM7 has elevated the status of the institution internally by making ourselves too useful to ignore, and its now up to CSM8 to carry that momentum into their term as well.

Especially with a new EP entering the picture at some point in 2013, its all the more critical that we prove our value to as wide a cross-section of the company as possible. Otherwise, new management may decide that an expensive handful of ragey players that can't channel their energy into anything more constructive than ranting on forums or skype isn't worth the effort.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
#42 - 2013-04-17 23:51:49 UTC
mynnna wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
first page \o/

Is it too late to throw a few bribes out to the CSM8 candidates?

Better yet how do we get CCP Dolan to throw out a bunch of NULL SEC blocks ballots due to something like hanging chads?Lol


Can't win the election fairly, so you're looking to cheat.

Are you an American? We have a lovely political party you'd fit right in with called the "GOP". Blink


I work in Chicago. We don't have a GOP. It was outlawed ages ago Roll

The Nosy Gamer - CCP Random: "hehe, falls under the category: nice try, but no. ;)"

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#43 - 2013-04-17 23:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
I'm just calling you out for taking credit for **** you didn't do.


No, you're once again acting like a butt-hurt baby that's mad because this story you've been trying to weave for over 6 months now about a useless CSM7 is unravelling before your very eyes, despite all best efforts to "educate" the public about our collective failings.

And in the absence of being able to call us all useless, you're trying to take down anyone you can possibly still get hooks into (Have you given up on the "terrible trebor" narrative so soon?). The bottom line is that Seleene has never been AWOL during any of these critical periods, and continues to be our primary point of contact with the company. He's the reason we've landed so many meetings with CCP Unifex, this entire Stakeholdership push to begin with was his brainchild and he's seen it through to successful completion.

Just because he hasn't had the time this year (due to changing RL responsbilities) to go around whoring himself to the media does not mean that he's been an ineffective Chairman. By all means, keep attempting to convince everyone you're in a better position than someone who's worked alongside him to report on Seleene's actviities, but everyone knows your shtick by now and you sound ridiculous when you get this worked up into a froth.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-04-17 23:56:12 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
... its all the more critical that we prove our value to as wide a cross-section of the company as possible.
Your time is up in a week. You don't have to worry about it anymore.
Frying Doom
#45 - 2013-04-17 23:59:55 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
As the CSM is the Voice of the players, don't you think endorsements from players would be more relevant?

This has been CSM7s biggest failing, they forgot who they actually work for.


You really DON'T have a clue as to how this all works, do you. Roll

The minute the CSM fails to be of use to CCP is the minute it ceases to exist. The more practical benefit we provide the company, the longer we preserve our ability to operate and serve as the voice of the people. CSM7 has elevated the status of the institution internally by making ourselves too useful to ignore, and its now up to CSM8 to carry that momentum into their term as well.

Especially with a new EP entering the picture at some point in 2013, its all the more critical that we prove our value to as wide a cross-section of the company as possible. Otherwise, new management may decide that an expensive handful of ragey players that can't channel their energy into anything more constructive than ranting on forums or skype isn't worth the effort.

Yes the CSM does need to be of use to CCP.

But it more importantly need to be of use to the players.

There is very little point having a player elected council, if it is more concerned with being of use to CCP, than it is of being of use to the players.

The CSM is more in danger of being useless to CCP, if it fails to be the voice of the players, than it does by being another internal CCP group.

CCP has internal working bodies to assess its own work, the value of the CSM is to express how the community as a whole will respond to the changes and too communicate with the Community as a whole.

I mean why would anyone vote for a CSM that is a part of CCP and not actually our voice, the CSM is meant to work with CCP as the voice of the people, not work for CCP and not communicate with the players.

As I said "This has been CSM7s biggest failing, they forgot who they actually work for."
What is the CSM wrote:
The Scope of the CSM

The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP.
This requires active engagement with the player community to master EVE issue awareness, understanding, and evaluation in the context of the “greatest good for the greater player base”. The scope of issues is restricted only to EVE, its ongoing development, and limited meta (out-of-game) issues which have direct relevance to the EVE universe. It is important to keep in mind that the CSM will not have formal powers within CCP, they will have a voice inside CCP.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-04-18 00:00:57 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
The minute the CSM fails to be of use to CCP is the minute it ceases to exist.
So, what you're saying is, your job is to keep CCP happy ... not listen to player concerns. Your less a voice of the players, and more a voice of CCP.

Gotcha.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#47 - 2013-04-18 00:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
... its all the more critical that we prove our value to as wide a cross-section of the company as possible.
Your time is up in a week. You don't have to worry about it anymore.


That's ridiculous. It would be incredibly irresponsible to decide that because there's only a week left, our job doesnt matter and that there's nothing more to be done. You tried to spin that story, too, a couple months ago at the beginning of the CSM8 elections, declaring CSM7's time to have come to a close. In addition to all of the work that's transpired since than, today, drafts of the information that will be revealed in some of the Fanfest presentations regarding several critical features of the Odyssey expansion that haven't even been revealed yet were posted internally. The CSM have pounced on it with feedback via our various channels, just like we have all year.

Simply put, "not worrying about it" would be dropping the ball and failing the player community, and leaving some massively consequential game changes to CCP's whim. Literally the only reason for you to actively encourage the CSM to not do their jobs right now is give yourself one last thing to complain about later.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#48 - 2013-04-18 00:15:38 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
The minute the CSM fails to be of use to CCP is the minute it ceases to exist.
So, what you're saying is, your job is to keep CCP happy ... not listen to player concerns. Your less a voice of the players, and more a voice of CCP.

Gotcha.


Not at all. CCP has its own voice and throwing us into a bunch of meetings all year, interrupting their schedules, and paying money to fly us to iceland would collectively be a colossal waste of time if we weren't bringing a unique player community perspective to the table, that goes against their own natural instincts and helps them to spot problems before they are made manifest on the server.

The fact that we represented the players is made explicitly clear by multiple contributors to the blog, there's really little point in trying this last-dtich effort to sing the "sycophant" song that by now has been thoroughly debunked and left to rot with the rest of your failed slam campaigns.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Frying Doom
#49 - 2013-04-18 00:23:11 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
The minute the CSM fails to be of use to CCP is the minute it ceases to exist.
So, what you're saying is, your job is to keep CCP happy ... not listen to player concerns. Your less a voice of the players, and more a voice of CCP.

Gotcha.


Not at all. CCP has its own voice and throwing us into a bunch of meetings all year, interrupting their schedules, and paying money to fly us to iceland would collectively be a colossal waste of time if we weren't bringing a unique player community perspective to the table, that goes against their own natural instincts and helps them to spot problems before they are made manifest on the server.

The fact that we represented the players is made explicitly clear by multiple contributors to the blog, there's really little point in trying this last-dtich effort to sing the "sycophant" song that by now has been thoroughly debunked and left to rot with the rest of your failed slam campaigns.

So if you are the voice of the players and not just a pile of CCP sell outs, as it appears to others.

How about a little transparency? Who in CSM7 was for the STV system that CCP wanted and who was actually against it?

Did the CSM actually put up a fight against a system the players as a majority (See voting reform discussions) did not want or did the CSM just do as CCP wanted, not putting up a fight?

As to "The fact that we represented the players is made explicitly clear by multiple contributors to the blog", now personally I would be concerned if an employer was singing the praise of a union more than the employees were.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#50 - 2013-04-18 00:29:14 UTC
mynnna wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
first page \o/

Is it too late to throw a few bribes out to the CSM8 candidates?

Better yet how do we get CCP Dolan to throw out a bunch of NULL SEC blocks ballots due to something like hanging chads?Lol


Can't win the election fairly, so you're looking to cheat.

Are you an American? We have a lovely political party you'd fit right in with called the "GOP". Blink



AND YOU GOON ARE ACCUSING ME OF CHEATING: http://i.imgur.com/Vz9SUw8.png ShockedTwistedEvil
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#51 - 2013-04-18 00:40:30 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
As to "The fact that we represented the players is made explicitly clear by multiple contributors to the blog", now personally I would be concerned if an employer was singing the praise of a union more than the employees were.


Good thing you have nothing to be concerned about. This is by far the most extensive set of CCP comments we've heard about the CSM all year, and it pales in comparison to the collective feedback provided by the player base. We've enjoyed far, far more compliments from the community that we'll ever receive from CCP - and its THAT feedback we value the most, because you're the reason we put the time and effort in to begin with.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Frying Doom
#52 - 2013-04-18 00:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Ok so you don't want to answer that one.

How about, if CSM7 was acting as the voice of the players and not the voice of CCP, why did one of your members feel the need to ignore the rest of the CSM and make a threadnaught about POSs, as he felt the CSM were not going to go against the wishes of CCP?

Amazing how hard it is to get transparency from CSM7.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-04-18 00:42:16 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
mynnna wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
first page \o/

Is it too late to throw a few bribes out to the CSM8 candidates?

Better yet how do we get CCP Dolan to throw out a bunch of NULL SEC blocks ballots due to something like hanging chads?Lol


Can't win the election fairly, so you're looking to cheat.

Are you an American? We have a lovely political party you'd fit right in with called the "GOP". Blink



AND YOU GOON ARE ACCUSING ME OF CHEATING: http://i.imgur.com/Vz9SUw8.png ShockedTwistedEvil


Well this is eve.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Frying Doom
#54 - 2013-04-18 01:25:06 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
As to "The fact that we represented the players is made explicitly clear by multiple contributors to the blog", now personally I would be concerned if an employer was singing the praise of a union more than the employees were.


Good thing you have nothing to be concerned about. This is by far the most extensive set of CCP comments we've heard about the CSM all year, and it pales in comparison to the collective feedback provided by the player base. We've enjoyed far, far more compliments from the community that we'll ever receive from CCP - and its THAT feedback we value the most, because you're the reason we put the time and effort in to begin with.

Ok after having done a little bit of looking I am yet to find a blog posted in the last 6 months from non-csm members that have actually praised CSM7s actions except Two Step.

There are a lot of blogs maybe you could point me in the direction of a few as you have been praised so much by the community.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#55 - 2013-04-18 01:25:23 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Amazing how hard it is to get transparency from CSM7.


It's really easy, actually - you just haven't been paying attention every other time this has been discussed. No matter how much everyone enjoys sensationalizing the story for political purposes (CSM "activism" sells really well!), the fact remains that the CSM was told, in no uncertain terms, that POS improvements were going to happen in the summer expansion. We'd been in talks with them about the importance of POS improvements since the beginning of our term, and we'd already told them that NOT working on POS's in the summer was unacceptable no matter how you slice it. CCP admitted in the summit that while they weren't going to be doing the full modular POS system, the abysmal current state of POS's had been made clear to them and that they would be addressing it directly. Two step had his constituency to consider, and felt he was doing his responsibility to push the issue regardless of the fact that we'd already obtained the commitment from CCP that we sought.

But did the threadnought change a goddamn thing other than tie up CCP's staff for a couple days trying to calm everyone down out of panic mode? Nope, the outcome was the same. But because it felt good, and was the closest thing to the Jita-shooting spirit we'd seen in CSM6's term, it's going to continue to be put on a pedestal and worshiped as a hero story by those that believe in the "activist" model irregardless of whether it was actually the reason POS improvements made it into Odyssey.

If you think the CSM's job is to counter CCP at every step of the way, you're crazy. If Two step had wanted to go "against the wishes of CCP" he would have had to ask them NOT to work on POS's at all. There are times when CCP acquiesces and gives the CSM what its asking for, and in my opinion these are the least appropriate times to try to strongarm them further. I'd personally much rather reward CCP's cooperation than punish it. Two step meant well, and has been a tireless advocate for the players, and this doesnt reflect poorly on him in the long run.

We simply disagreed at the time on how to best handle the situation, and since than the facts of the story have continued to be heavily politicized by various groups who like to use the threadnought story to make a point.


CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#56 - 2013-04-18 01:34:39 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Ok after having done a little bit of looking I am yet to find a blog posted in the last 6 months from non-csm members that have actually praised CSM7s actions except Two Step.

There are a lot of blogs maybe you could point me in the direction of a few as you have been praised so much by the community.


No. You're being lazy, any amateur can sift through a few blogs and come up with any conclusion they way as long as they are selective enough. The fact that you think that praise has to come from a blog to count is ridiculous, and the fact that you think this is a good use of my time right now speaks volumes about how much you care about CSM performance vs seizing another opportunity to troll.

Good day sir, I'm off to pack my bags for Iceland. o7

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

dark heartt
#57 - 2013-04-18 01:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: dark heartt
Frying Doom wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
As to "The fact that we represented the players is made explicitly clear by multiple contributors to the blog", now personally I would be concerned if an employer was singing the praise of a union more than the employees were.


Good thing you have nothing to be concerned about. This is by far the most extensive set of CCP comments we've heard about the CSM all year, and it pales in comparison to the collective feedback provided by the player base. We've enjoyed far, far more compliments from the community that we'll ever receive from CCP - and its THAT feedback we value the most, because you're the reason we put the time and effort in to begin with.

Ok after having done a little bit of looking I am yet to find a blog posted in the last 6 months from non-csm members that have actually praised CSM7s actions except Two Step.

There are a lot of blogs maybe you could point me in the direction of a few as you have been praised so much by the community.


Do you think feedback only comes in blogs? What about the various podcasts where I have heard good things? What about people mailing the CSM members? In game chat? Bloggers will use anything to generate hits and controversy is usually a good way to do that. What better way to do that then rip into a high profile target like the CSM.

The bias in this post is so obvious. You go out of your way to try and belittle the CSM everywhere on these forums, and this is just another example.
Frying Doom
#58 - 2013-04-18 01:43:22 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Amazing how hard it is to get transparency from CSM7.


It's really easy, actually - you just haven't been paying attention every other time this has been discussed. No matter how much everyone enjoys sensationalizing the story for political purposes (CSM "activism" sells really well!), the fact remains that the CSM was told, in no uncertain terms, that POS improvements were going to happen in the summer expansion. We'd been in talks with them about the importance of POS improvements since the beginning of our term, and we'd already told them that NOT working on POS's in the summer was unacceptable no matter how you slice it. CCP admitted in the summit that while they weren't going to be doing the full modular POS system, the abysmal current state of POS's had been made clear to them and that they would be addressing it directly. Two step had his constituency to consider, and felt he was doing his responsibility to push the issue regardless of the fact that we'd already obtained the commitment from CCP that we sought.

But did the threadnought change a goddamn thing other than tie up CCP's staff for a couple days trying to calm everyone down out of panic mode? Nope, the outcome was the same. But because it felt good, and was the closest thing to the Jita-shooting spirit we'd seen in CSM6's term, it's going to continue to be put on a pedestal and worshiped as a hero story by those that believe in the "activist" model irregardless of whether it was actually the reason POS improvements made it into Odyssey.

If you think the CSM's job is to counter CCP at every step of the way, you're crazy. If Two step had wanted to go "against the wishes of CCP" he would have had to ask them NOT to work on POS's at all. There are times when CCP acquiesces and gives the CSM what its asking for, and in my opinion these are the least appropriate times to try to strongarm them further. I'd personally much rather reward CCP's cooperation than punish it. Two step meant well, and has been a tireless advocate for the players, and this doesnt reflect poorly on him in the long run.

We simply disagreed at the time on how to best handle the situation, and since than the facts of the story have continued to be heavily politicized by various groups who like to use the threadnought story to make a point.



Ok so you are saying that Two Step was completely incompetent and had no reason what so ever to start that thread naught.

Two Step wrote:
It wasn't in the minutes, but I spent a lot of time talking to Unifex about this at night. Needless to say, I disagreed with CCP's decision to not move ahead with work on the POS system. I also disagree that only a small group of people would feel the effects of a new POS system. From wormhole residents to Tech 2 producers to nullsec residents, a lot of people interact with POSes. Also, a redesigned POS system would both attract players that were frustrated to the point of giving up with the old POS system as well as new players who cannot use the current POS system because of limitations with roles.

Even ignoring the incorrect statements about who would care about a POS rewrite, I feel that we are owed some work on the POS system. Wormholers have been very patient with CCP during the last couple years while other supposedly higher priority issues have been addressed. During that time, we sat back and continued to pay our subscriptions to CCP, secure in the "promise" that we felt CCP had made at FanFest in 2012 and again at the May/June CSM summit: They were working on a new POS system, there was no reason to fix the many issues with the current one.

That hope has turned out to be a false one. CCP decided that the full modular POS system would require the effort of the whole company for a whole expansion, and they feel the benefits don't justify that much effort. I personally don't agree, but I do feel that if CCP is not going to deliver the full modular POS vision right now, they MUST deliver improvements to the current system. When we were first told about the decision to not deliver modular POSes this summer, I led the CSM in the creation of a list of the needed improvements. The first item on the list, and in my opinion the bare minimum that CCP should deliver, is to have real private ship and item storage at POSes.

The good news is that CCP has not done their planning for the May expansion yet. That planning is happening right now, and CSM is involved in the process. I want you, the players, to be involved as well. I want you to tell CCP that you want POS improvements to be the bare minimum for the next expansion. I want you to tell CCP that you are "a small portion of the community". I've created a thread, please go here and let CCP know that you are also a small portion of the community.


So he had no need to post this at all then.

Ok so we have no transparency in the CSM and now you are saying Two Step, the person who did communicate what he thought was a problem, is actually incompetent.

I find this "Two step meant well, and has been a tireless advocate for the players, and this doesnt reflect poorly on him in the long run. " funny as hell, Two Steps actions have given him praise far and wide, so the only people that would consider his actions as to "reflect poorly" on him are the other members of the CSM.

As to "If you think the CSM's job is to counter CCP at every step of the way, you're crazy."
No not at all, if CCPs ideas are what the players would like or similar the CSMs job is to aid and assist.

If CCPs ideas are against what the player base would prefer, it is the CSMs job to make our voice heard. See Incarna, the UI mess, FW LP loop hole, the jukebox, POSs, the STV and who knows what the next expansion will hold that the player base dislikes.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#59 - 2013-04-18 01:45:15 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Ok after having done a little bit of looking I am yet to find a blog posted in the last 6 months from non-csm members that have actually praised CSM7s actions except Two Step.

There are a lot of blogs maybe you could point me in the direction of a few as you have been praised so much by the community.


No. You're being lazy, any amateur can sift through a few blogs and come up with any conclusion they way as long as they are selective enough. The fact that you think that praise has to come from a blog to count is ridiculous, and the fact that you think this is a good use of my time right now speaks volumes about how much you care about CSM performance vs seizing another opportunity to troll.

Good day sir, I'm off to pack my bags for Iceland. o7

The fact that you have lots of unverifiable praise but are unable to point to any praise from the blogging community speaks volumes.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#60 - 2013-04-18 01:48:49 UTC
dark heartt wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
As to "The fact that we represented the players is made explicitly clear by multiple contributors to the blog", now personally I would be concerned if an employer was singing the praise of a union more than the employees were.


Good thing you have nothing to be concerned about. This is by far the most extensive set of CCP comments we've heard about the CSM all year, and it pales in comparison to the collective feedback provided by the player base. We've enjoyed far, far more compliments from the community that we'll ever receive from CCP - and its THAT feedback we value the most, because you're the reason we put the time and effort in to begin with.

Ok after having done a little bit of looking I am yet to find a blog posted in the last 6 months from non-csm members that have actually praised CSM7s actions except Two Step.

There are a lot of blogs maybe you could point me in the direction of a few as you have been praised so much by the community.


Do you think feedback only comes in blogs? What about the various podcasts where I have heard good things? What about people mailing the CSM members? In game chat? Bloggers will use anything to generate hits and controversy is usually a good way to do that. What better way to do that then rip into a high profile target like the CSM.

The bias in this post is so obvious. You go out of your way to try and belittle the CSM everywhere on these forums, and this is just another example.

Having listened to a fair few pod casts lately, I must have missed it, except on the one run by a CSM member.

As to ingame mail ect.. how about the ability to verify this praise because it seems strange to see no bloggers praise them but believe they are praised a lot in game.

As to bias, I was a supporter of CSM7 until they tried to rig the voting system against voters, and then they went quiet and did everything behind closed doors with little communication to the playerbase.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!