Intergalactic Summit

Katran.

I have seen that a common guiding phrase within many Federation educational systems is 'How, not what'.
At first this confused me, so I did a little research. It appears that there was a movement some time after the end of the initial Cal-Gal war that children should be taught How to think, not What to think and that the movement in question gained widespread popular support, especially amongst those doing the teaching.

Let us examine this against the Amarrian methods.
If you dissent against the Theology council mandated teachings in Amarr, you are either re-educated swiftly, or, if your dissent continues, enslaved for generations.
The Theocratic government mandates that your people teach those they reclaim 'What to think' and limit their ability to think other things.

So, your claim that the Federation schooling system would teach you only what the Federation wants you to think, is as farcical as the claim that the SDII are even capable of "stick[ing] a black bag over your head in the middle of the night" if you dissent against the government. There are many trillions of Federation citizens. The SDII are a small part of the FIO. They simply don't have the manpower to 'remove' every dissenting voice. Even a cursory examination of Federation media and society shows that there are always many dissenting voices. That is part of what makes the Federation such a melting pot of ideals and cultures.

You may dislike non-Amarrian cultures, but seriously, superimposing the negative aspects of your own culture upon them and then claiming that is why they are so bad is, at best, hypocritical and at worst a sign of severe psychosis.

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Seven Tribes.
One Matari People.

Vikarion, if you have nothing in particular to add to this debate, do be silent.
You have ignored the first portion of my post, taken the rest out of context, and then had the nerve to insult my intelligence.
You do not make yourself or your corporation look good by doing so.

I argued that the SDII do not control Federation education. As they do not and within Federation charter cannot, this is true.
I also refuted Katran's claim that if you speak out against the Federation, the SDII put a black bag over your head and remove you from society/

I did not mention anything about the SDII controlling the flow of information within the Federation, but with the freedom of the press being upheld by Federate law, this attempt to damage my claims can also be easily proven false.

The one point you make that is true is that the Amarrian Empire has a larger population base, Though this holds very little relevance to the subject.

To control the flow of information, or remove all dissenting voices (as Katran has claimed would happen) The SDII would have to work in direct opposition to the charter and legal system of the Federation.

So, once again, a comparison is required.

Within the Amarr empire the Theology Council DO provide the sanctioned interpretations of their scripture.
Deviation from these sanctioned interpretations is, in general, deemed heretical and those who follow them either exiled, enslaved or killed.
While there are dissenting voices often raised on political matters, and as with most other things in Amarrian culture, this touches upon Theology Council interpretations of scripture, differing religious beliefs are not often tolerated.

So. To the reason the larger population of Amarr has little relevance to this topic.
I touched upon this earlier when I mentioned that the SDII would have to work against the system it is apparently sworn to protect.
The Theology Council does not have to work against the system. They 'are' the system.
Unlike in the Federation, where the actions of those in power have various methods in place to ensure that power cannot be easily abused, the only one able to counter the word of the Theology Council is the Empress.


So, Vikarion. unless you were simply attempting to take a cheap shot at my argument :

You claim that there are 'various interpretations' that are tolerated.
The political issue of slavery and the ongoing war with the Matari aside, I challenge you to name Five distinct interpretations. Five distinct groups that are separate to the Theology Council and do not abide by their interpretations.
Just two stipulations. 1) they cannot be capsuleer entities. 2) they have to be verifiably accepted by the empire and by the theology council.

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Seven Tribes.
One Matari People.

Remember, buy NOH or the Black Eagles will eat your babies.

Crap, you're easy to bait.

Okay, Ishukone, Sukuuvestaa and Nugoeihuvi corporations are traitorous enemies of the State.

Remind me, which State?

I never said they all are "traitorous enemies of the State". I can name some capsuleer organizations traitorous, but calling megacorps such I never did. I will leave it to CEP, CPD and our Executor. Should they name them so, I will do the same.

As for "easy to bait", I tend to trust judgement of the most merited person in the State. And do you?

Wrong, moron. I'm not the one making major claims about an empire. I'm pointing out the lack of evidence and logical flaws in your claims. For example, you can't say that the Federation couldn't control its people if it wanted to - because it is too large - while saying that the Amarrian Empire can, even though it is larger.

It doesn't actually matter whether or not the Federation does, for the sake of argument, it only matters whether your claim is reasonable. And it isn't.

As for their being differences regarding policy and interpretation of Scripture in the Empire, I suggest you consider such elements as the different Houses and Royal Families, and the ideological differences between each. There are five - you ought to be able to count that high.

Now, as to the SDII having to work against the charter and nature of the Federation...

The Federation has always had a deep thread of ultra-nationalism running through it. It is this thread that helped instigate the Caldari/Gallente war, by blockading and attempting to starve Caldari Prime, well before Nouvelle Rouvenour. It was Gallente ultra-nationalism, even after the fall of Luc Duvalier, that insisted on retaining Caldari Prime and conducting a hundred-year war to attempt to re-subjugate the Caldari people. Many may not remember it well, but the Gallente war aim for one hundred years was the nationalistic goal of conquering the Caldari. It wasn't until the discovery of the Amarr (and the realization that the Federation could not enforce its mandate of a universal order by force) that the Gallente Federation sued for peace.

And even then, a stated goal of the Federation - publicly - is the extension of Gallente values and, eventually, hegemony to every corner of New Eden. It has been made clear by the Gallente government on multiple occasions - which you can find if you bother to read older news articles - that they desire to realize the democratization and liberalization of every people in New Eden. And this isn't even mentioning the ultra-nationalists, who have been repeatedly linked to Roden Industries and Mentas Blaque. And who runs the Federation? Roden and Blacque.

I'm expecting royalties since the (intent for use of the) name was conceived in my thread.

I grew up in Luminaire and went to colllege in Caille. I can a test to what Toluijin Chagangan says is true, we are taught from a young age not trust anyone mainly our government and to look for the "How things work" and the "Why things work", so that care see the world with our own eyes. I will say that when news of the Black Eagles acts were first reported many in the Federation where angry and upset. I was part of a group that protested this. And when I came of age I left the Federation and sought out a new lfe among stars. I joined a group Caldari State corporation Axiom Navy that was the millitary arm of their alliance Axiom Alliance. In that alliance I saw the How and Why of the State. I was a just a number to the Peace and Order corporation, and many of the missions they sent me one were to steal or kill people for "crimes" that were not. I couldn't understand it. I saw the how and Why of Tibus Heth. I could see how he had turn his people in slaves of the State. Do not fool your self, he has. The why is so he can fuel his own hate. He does not wish peace, he mind only breeds hate and it has done the same to you all. Not wanting to be part of that hate I left.
So I went deeper into the void. I founded my own corporation and went to Low Sec and the Null. There I found truth to what my Government teacher told me in college. "The Federation is the worst from of government there has ever been, but it is the best that mankind has." It really is the worst and the best. It is the worst because at time it is slow to re-act and move when there needs to be speed. It is the best because it gives every citizen the same chance to make it. It respects the lives and freedoms of it people. And most importantly it teaches its people that freedoms are not free but at a deep cost. That is way I came back to the the Federation. I had great repect and good standing with the Caldari State because of my service to the Peace and Order corporation.
I do not condone the Black Eagles and their rouge attackes on Caldari people in any star systems. But they are that, rouge attacks. The Federation did not issue them. No rational Federation citizen would support this rouge actions. I know that many in the Caldari state will not say the same of Yakiya Tovil-Toba killing 2 mill Federation citizens in Hueromont, Tibus Heth's time in the Home Guard attacking citizens of Gallente and Intaki heritage in the station he was station he was assigned tom, or actions of the Templis Dragonaurs. Insteed you will call this people heroes.
Yet another case where the State is not willing to look at the log in their own eyes before pulling the speck from some elses.

The Theology Council operates as the supreme court of the Empire. Consider their accepted understanding of Scriptures as the cornerstone of all Imperial Law and procedure. When these laws are breached, there are a number of ways in which they are prosecuted with the Theology Council's direct involvement being at the end of the most extreme proceedings.

Cases in which an individual would face exile or death would be convicted cases of open and unrepentant heresy or repetitive blasphemy. Cases that would result in enslavement are usually violations against a Holder (or Holder's family), gross negligence of responsibility (in the case of a Holder) or other similar instances.

Deviations and misinterpretations of Scripture are expected in the commonality and even, to a lesser extent, the nobility. However, there is a difference between an erroneous belief or misinterpretation and heresy, primarily that the former is correctable and not always counter to the core message while the latter is always willful and in opposition.



Actually, this is incorrect. The Theology Council, as I stated above, operates primarily as a supreme court. It's purpose is to establish Scriptural canon and enforce the legislation of the Empire at the highest level. However, its purpose and place in the Empire is often dramatically overestimated by non-Imperials. While it is true that the Theology Council presides over cases of heresy, blasphemy and other legislative and religious infractions, it is not the highest authority in the Empire under the Empress.

I would explain in greater detail the governmental structure and operation of the Empire but this is certainly not the place for it. I hope this clarifies it at least in part.

That you claim to know, without reservation, the mind of your government is laughable.
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I never said that without reservation I know that mind of my Government. I made sure to reread my response to make that I didn't say it. I said that at young age all Federation Citizens are taught to mistrust our government and to question what people they do. I am read unsure where you think I said the understood them. So i find it laughable that made such a comment.
I also find it laughable that people in the State will blindly follow your goverment with out question. Not only is that laughable it is crazy. The Megacorporation and State has turning you in to drone bee only so service it purpose and not your own.


You seem to be suffering the common misconception that we, Caldari, want to be like you. We don't. No matter how many times it is said, the message just will not penetrate the collective skulls of the Federation. Heth-haan was what the people of our State needed, if not wanted, at the time. He served a purpose. That you and yours disagree only fuels our need to be independent of you and your opinions on how we should behave.
.[/quote]
You are right there is misconception here, I assumed that people of all races want to be treated fairly and with respect, given the tools to educate themselves and work for themsleves not for some super leadership that uses them as a slave. I also will point out that at the end of the First Gallente-Caldari war we let you do your own thing. It was not until the Empyrean War that open conflict came between us.
I am also confused by your statements of Heth in the past tense. Are you saying that he is no longer in power? Is Heth no longer need? Did the Caldari State really need a Warmonger?



What I know is people who claim loyalties (truthfully or not) to your holier-than-thou Federation are shooting citizens of my State. Often from GMVA members have I seen words to the effect of, "We are Federates and cannot control other Federates." Why then should we believe you when you claim you are not responsible? These men and women were trained in your Federation, by your Federation. They are your responsibility.[/quote]

First State broke a peace with the Federation only to hold Federation Citizen at Doom Day point, until only few months ago. The State also used a Chimera carrier as a batter ram to kill 2 million Federation Citizens. Templis Dragonaus also placed bombs in Caille and acting as terrorist to the Gallente people. If you want to know why my countrymen are shooting you those are some of reasons. You said that all Goverment do things that they do not want their people to find out about yet you are unwilling to speak on actions of your government again only to tell me about the speck in my eye while ingoring the log in yours.
To the affect of what GMVA members has said it is true. Ultimently we are not responsible for the actions of another Federation citizen. Every Federal Citizen is responsible for their own actions and resaults from them. We are not a collective. We are not mindless drone bees. We are free thinking citizens that understand that all our actions have consenquences that we must atone for and live with. Are you Anja responsible for the actions of Tibus Heth, Templis Dragonaus or Tovil-Toba?