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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1901 - 2013-04-17 13:23:53 UTC
A bad player will always blame the ships, that's true.

.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1902 - 2013-04-17 13:28:15 UTC
Virgil Disith wrote:
It's nice that Gallente do the whole "drone thing", and have some sort of niche role...

but what ultimately urks me is that there is absolutely no "fleet" option out of their line up. Hyperion would be an optimal choice imo, but that FRICKING repair bonus... what a waste. This bonus WILL go to waste, sans missioners, unless that's what CCP intends for it to be good at, and nothing else (except maybe solo camping? in a hype? i guess if you're rich/bored)

right down to their command ships...gallente really herp the derp in terms of a 'fleet' option. if that's their niche, just say so, so I can turn away for good and not look back.

so much disappoint



Do you notice that the maelstrom that is minmatar fleet ship has EXACTLY SAME REPAIR BONUS .. Its a waste in fleet ships.. but is still a premier fleet ship. STOP WHINING. Could be better? yes... need to ? nope.

The megatron is still quite usable in fleets. The tiny 6-7k EHP difference will not make SO much difference.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1903 - 2013-04-17 14:12:11 UTC
CCP Rise have you compared the dual plated/trimark megathrons speed/agility to the Hyperion and other attack battleships?
I suspect if you do you will notice its not very mobile and attack like its more of a lightweight tanked combat battleship.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1904 - 2013-04-17 14:28:38 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Do you notice that the maelstrom that is minmatar fleet ship has EXACTLY SAME REPAIR BONUS .. Its a waste in fleet ships.. but is still a premier fleet ship. STOP WHINING. Could be better? yes... need to ? nope.

The megatron is still quite usable in fleets. The tiny 6-7k EHP difference will not make SO much difference.
Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1905 - 2013-04-17 15:02:39 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Do you notice that the maelstrom that is minmatar fleet ship has EXACTLY SAME REPAIR BONUS .. Its a waste in fleet ships.. but is still a premier fleet ship. STOP WHINING. Could be better? yes... need to ? nope.

The megatron is still quite usable in fleets. The tiny 6-7k EHP difference will not make SO much difference.
Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not.

Exactly ! That does mean that a repair bonus don't make a ship bad for fleet, that's a combination of more factors than only its bonuses !

And that's why I wrote pages trying to explain that gallente trying to mimic other ships for blob fleet warfare would lead to absolutely no results : because high armor LR dps could be done the exact same way with amarr ships. Instead, the Eos should be an advice : gallente are a strong electronic race, and this electronic goes into the mid slots. Hence, I think we should make gallente good at compensating tank/range/alpha with electronic warfare in their midslots. Bonus side effect is that midslots are godly for small gang warfare, a thing were gallente ships excells at.

The megathron should be good in fleets, but I don't expect it to be better than something else at anything.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1906 - 2013-04-17 15:32:01 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Do you notice that the maelstrom that is minmatar fleet ship has EXACTLY SAME REPAIR BONUS .. Its a waste in fleet ships.. but is still a premier fleet ship. STOP WHINING. Could be better? yes... need to ? nope.

The megatron is still quite usable in fleets. The tiny 6-7k EHP difference will not make SO much difference.
Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not.

Exactly ! That does mean that a repair bonus don't make a ship bad for fleet, that's a combination of more factors than only its bonuses !

And that's why I wrote pages trying to explain that gallente trying to mimic other ships for blob fleet warfare would lead to absolutely no results : because high armor LR dps could be done the exact same way with amarr ships. Instead, the Eos should be an advice : gallente are a strong electronic race, and this electronic goes into the mid slots. Hence, I think we should make gallente good at compensating tank/range/alpha with electronic warfare in their midslots. Bonus side effect is that midslots are godly for small gang warfare, a thing were gallente ships excells at.

The megathron should be good in fleets, but I don't expect it to be better than something else at anything.
o\ ...

Repair bonuses are bad for fleets. The "other combination of factors" that you are considering here doesn't exist on a platform that needs to be in point-blank range to apply damage and is heavily weighed down by its armor, making it difficult to get there. It works in the Mael, again, because arty's high alpha is SO MUCH BETTER--far outweighing any benefit lost from the repair bonus--for current fleet warfare, that it doesn't matter that one of the ship's bonuses are wasted.

Other than high damage really close, the Gallente ships don't particularly have that much going for them. Rail fits? Use a Rokh: it's more mobile, shoots farther and has more buffer. And besides, if you must have an armor BS for range, then everyone knows Apocs (for range) or Abaddons (for tank) are the clear winners.

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DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#1907 - 2013-04-17 16:09:32 UTC
I hope my opinion will make since reguarding the new Hyperion change ideas.......... ARE YOU NUTS!

Right now with similar fits the hyperion does 110 dps less than the vindi. Now you want to give it an extra Drone, and more gun DPS. WITH A REP BONUS!

When the dust settles the hyp will not only do similar DPS of a Vindicator, but also have an insane active tank bonus. Also have utility highs to kill ECM drones or neut. With full flight of heavy drones, and even some backups.

This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.

Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#1908 - 2013-04-17 16:13:23 UTC
Quote:
This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.

Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.


And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs.
Suicide Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1909 - 2013-04-17 16:17:51 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
I hope my opinion will make since reguarding the new Hyperion change ideas.......... ARE YOU NUTS!

Right now with similar fits the hyperion does 110 dps less than the vindi. Now you want to give it an extra Drone, and more gun DPS. WITH A REP BONUS!

When the dust settles the hyp will not only do similar DPS of a Vindicator, but also have an insane active tank bonus. Also have utility highs to kill ECM drones or neut. With full flight of heavy drones, and even some backups.

This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.

Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.

I don't know what math you are looking at.. but it will not match the Vindi in raw DPS, much less the Vindi's other bonuses..

Also it won't get MORE Gun DPS.. It gets less.. the Bonus goes up, but it loses 2 turrets.
smoking gun81
Doomheim
#1910 - 2013-04-17 16:22:12 UTC
Suicide Smith wrote:

Then either drive them a Drone per level ( and the bandwidth to use it ), or another idea would be to let them fit the same mod Carriers use for additional drones/fighters ( this would be ideal if turret points remained, then you'd need to choice between more drones or turrets.. not or on the flipside, more drones, less drone control range).



You should feel bad for suggesting drone control units on BS's just like them wanting to give a BS hull carrier / logistic type bonus.
You want 10 drones get a carrier.
you want logistic bonus get a logistic.

Maximus Andendare wrote:

Having a single ship that can fit the Drone Control Units (via role bonus) and changing the +optimal range bonus to perhaps a range increase for RR would make for some interesting fits. You could RR your sentries or a spider tanked BS fleet again. Sounds like fun gameplay to me.


You can not call for the domi to get carrier style bonus that's like asking for a dread being allowed to use a doomsday device.

Virgil Disith wrote:
I had read other BS threads seeing updates to bonuses based on feed back, so I excitedly hopped over here hoping, praying something would have been done about the hyperion's worthless armor bonus.


The rep bonus is perfectly fine the tanking trouble comes from end cycle vs beginning cycle application and cycle times on relevant shield boost and armor rep modules at the end of it lots of alpha is always the solution to local tanked ships.

Maximus Andendare wrote:

Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not.


Love it an argument for removing a solo / small gang bonus based on stupidly large scale fights and alpha, Anything can be counter by enough of anything else.
Local tanked maelstrom's with AC's are quite good at small gang combat BECAUSE OF the local tanking bonus just like the hyperion is good in a similar situation.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1911 - 2013-04-17 16:24:48 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Do you notice that the maelstrom that is minmatar fleet ship has EXACTLY SAME REPAIR BONUS .. Its a waste in fleet ships.. but is still a premier fleet ship. STOP WHINING. Could be better? yes... need to ? nope.

The megatron is still quite usable in fleets. The tiny 6-7k EHP difference will not make SO much difference.
Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not.



And do not outread it. No where I said that the repair bonus help it. Just htat You do nto need 2 bonuses helping .

Gosshh sometimes I wonder if people are trained to not think or its natural...



Hyperion has higher DPS than maelstrom, it has its advantages. If the current metagame does not liek that.. its not gallente ships balance problem Its a METAGAME ISSUE. Stop firing at the wrong direction dammit

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#1912 - 2013-04-17 16:33:06 UTC  |  Edited by: DHB WildCat
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.

Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.


And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs.




Right..... lets compare shall we?

Vigilant -
slot layout - 5 / 4 / 6 (5 turrets)
bonuses - 75% damage / falloff and web bonus.
drones - 50 bandwith / 50 cap

Thorax -
Slot layout - 5 / 4 / 5 (5 turrets)
bonuses - 5% damage / 7.5% tracking
drones - 50 band / 50 cap

So vigi has more damage BY FAR. and ability to nano with falloff bonus or brawl with extra low slot by only really a passive option. Otherwise they are similar but vigi still better.



Now Battleships -

Vindicator -
slots - 8 / 5 / 7 (8 turrets)
Bonuses - 37.5% damage / tracking and web bonus
Drones - 125 band / 125 cap

Hyperion - (purposed changes)
slots 7 / 5 / 7 (6 turrets)
Bonuses - 10% Hybrid per level / 7.5% armor rep per level.
Drones - 125 Band / 175 cap

So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level. Not only that, but the slot layout both mids and lows are identical. Meaning you can place the same tank on both....... but wait Hyp gets an armor rep bonus too.. Making its Tank MUCH better than the vindis. Also the hyp now gets a full flight of Heavy drones, but also gets room for mediums and or lights with a larger bay. At least both have to use all highs for turrets for full DPS output....... oh wait thats right they gave the hyp an utility high slot too.


Now explain to me again just how the thorax and vigi comparison is the same as the hyp / vindi? Cause the way im looking at this is that the vigilant still has options, nano range ... or an exltra low for a bigger buffer tank. This new Hyp make the Vindi a completely obsolete piece of ****. This new hyp is broken!
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1913 - 2013-04-17 16:40:32 UTC
smoking gun81 wrote:
Suicide Smith wrote:

Then either drive them a Drone per level ( and the bandwidth to use it ), or another idea would be to let them fit the same mod Carriers use for additional drones/fighters ( this would be ideal if turret points remained, then you'd need to choice between more drones or turrets.. not or on the flipside, more drones, less drone control range).



You should feel bad for suggesting drone control units on BS's just like them wanting to give a BS hull carrier / logistic type bonus.
You want 10 drones get a carrier.
you want logistic bonus get a logistic.

Maximus Andendare wrote:

Having a single ship that can fit the Drone Control Units (via role bonus) and changing the +optimal range bonus to perhaps a range increase for RR would make for some interesting fits. You could RR your sentries or a spider tanked BS fleet again. Sounds like fun gameplay to me.


You can not call for the domi to get carrier style bonus that's like asking for a dread being allowed to use a doomsday device.

Virgil Disith wrote:
I had read other BS threads seeing updates to bonuses based on feed back, so I excitedly hopped over here hoping, praying something would have been done about the hyperion's worthless armor bonus.


The rep bonus is perfectly fine the tanking trouble comes from end cycle vs beginning cycle application and cycle times on relevant shield boost and armor rep modules at the end of it lots of alpha is always the solution to local tanked ships.

Maximus Andendare wrote:

Don't oversell it. The Maelstrom is the "premier fleet ship" because it has ridiculously high alpha, and in an age of TiDi that is the premier fleet tactic and reason for the Mael's success. The Mael does it the best--it has nothing to do with its repair bonus, lost as it is or not.


Love it an argument for removing a solo / small gang bonus based on stupidly large scale fights and alpha, Anything can be counter by enough of anything else.
Local tanked maelstrom's with AC's are quite good at small gang combat BECAUSE OF the local tanking bonus just like the hyperion is good in a similar situation.
You really ought to play this game before commenting on it.

First, carriers have 15 drones with the DCUs. The Domi would have 10 total. Carriers can use fighters. And I'm pretty sure the main reason to fly a carrier anyway is for triage. By your terrible logic, no ships could have bonuses any other has.

Second, ships that have dual bonuses to damage are still usable in small gangs. Ships that have a resist bonus and a damage bonus are usable by small gangs. And the argument for the removal of the local repair bonus is twofold: local armor tanking is cap intensive and performs poorly. There isn't an ASB module that armor tanked ships can fit that makes them cap-independent for tank.

Also, "stupidly large" fights aren't the push for getting rid of the local bonus or having it apply to remote reps. Again, you'd know this if you actually played the game. The main reason is that as soon as you introduce logi into a gang or fleet, which is ridiculously easy now with T1 logi, the local bonus is COMPLETELY wasted. So the argument becomes why fly a ship with one bonus when I can fly one with two?

Some experience, even a modest amount, in the field and you might actually have enough to speak credibly here.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1914 - 2013-04-17 16:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
DHB WildCat wrote:
Now Battleships -

Vindicator -
slots - 8 / 5 / 7 (8 turrets)
Bonuses - 37.5% damage / tracking and web bonus
Drones - 125 band / 125 cap

Hyperion - (purposed changes)
slots 7 / 5 / 7 (6 turrets)
Bonuses - 10% Hybrid per level / 7.5% armor rep per level.
Drones - 125 Band / 175 cap

So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level.

You are wrong :
6*1,5 = 9 effective turrets
8*1,375 = 11 effective turrets

Your welcome.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1915 - 2013-04-17 16:41:09 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.

Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.


And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs.


So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level.

So what school did you fail basic math from?
Last time I checked 6*1.5 = 9
and 8*1.375 = 11

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1916 - 2013-04-17 16:42:21 UTC
I would not go so far as to call it broken. But its indeed Much more powerful than any other T1 Battleship. But I think All T1 battleship should be brought UP to this level AND navy/pirate ones buffed even further instead. We have a huge lack of battleships already (not all scenarios, but they are much much more rare than in the past) so making them a bit more powerful would not hurt eve.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1917 - 2013-04-17 16:45:32 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level


8 + 37,5% = 11
6 + 50% = 9

...

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#1918 - 2013-04-17 16:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: DHB WildCat
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.

Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.


And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs.


So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level.

So what school did you fail basic math from?
Last time I checked 6*1.5 = 9
and 8*1.375 = 11




Jesus read the damn post again. I said similar, not the exact same. So we lose 200 dps, for an extra utility high, more drones, A way better tank. Its still broken! Also do you know any active tank vindi that runs 8 turrets? I know I dont. ECM drones will own you without a smartbomb.... every 8 turret ship unless in a fleet, is usually flown with 7 turrets and a smartbomb.

In fact this new hyp would make one hell of a pirate faction ship! 1 vs 1 The new hyp will kick a vindis ass.
smoking gun81
Doomheim
#1919 - 2013-04-17 16:54:15 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
This ship is going to put the Vindi out of order. I know for me personally that if these hit the server, Im going to fire sell every vindi i have before the price drops significantly and buy up hyps.

Please relook at this ship..... Its a monster with the perposed changes. Your new changes is what the Vindicator should be, not a t1 BS.


And the new Thorax obsoletes the Vigilant if you ignore the 90% webs.




Right..... lets compare shall we?

Vigilant -
slot layout - 5 / 4 / 6 (5 turrets)
bonuses - 75% damage / falloff and web bonus.
drones - 50 bandwith / 50 cap

Thorax -
Slot layout - 5 / 4 / 5 (5 turrets)
bonuses - 5% damage / 7.5% tracking
drones - 50 band / 50 cap

So vigi has more damage BY FAR. and ability to nano with falloff bonus or brawl with extra low slot by only really a passive option. Otherwise they are similar but vigi still better.



Now Battleships -

Vindicator -
slots - 8 / 5 / 7 (8 turrets)
Bonuses - 37.5% damage / tracking and web bonus
Drones - 125 band / 125 cap

Hyperion - (purposed changes)
slots 7 / 5 / 7 (6 turrets)
Bonuses - 10% Hybrid per level / 7.5% armor rep per level.
Drones - 125 Band / 175 cap

So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level. Not only that, but the slot layout both mids and lows are identical. Meaning you can place the same tank on both....... but wait Hyp gets an armor rep bonus too.. Making its Tank MUCH better than the vindis. Also the hyp now gets a full flight of Heavy drones, but also gets room for mediums and or lights with a larger bay. At least both have to use all highs for turrets for full DPS output....... oh wait thats right they gave the hyp an utility high slot too.


Now explain to me again just how the thorax and vigi comparison is the same as the hyp / vindi? Cause the way im looking at this is that the vigilant still has options, nano range ... or an exltra low for a bigger buffer tank. This new Hyp make the Vindi a completely obsolete piece of ****. This new hyp is broken!


until pirate ships get the tiericide treatment any comparison is pointless but:
CCP Rise wrote:
If anything, I'm worried this is too strong, but it should be an extremely fun ship to use. Hope you guys approve.

so it ultimately depends on what CCP will do with the pirate ships.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1920 - 2013-04-17 16:57:39 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Jesus read the damn post again. I said similar, not the exact same.
So ~25% is similar. Noted. And 200dps is nothing.