Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Rise,

are there any thoughts to reconsider the Raven bonus' in light of this? i'm presuming it has already been considered, but this seems like it will end up being a far bigger buff for the typhoon than the Raven because of the explosion radius.

Whilst it's nice that ravens are capable to hit way out at 200km. the reality is that very little combat now takes place beyond 100km because of probing and MJDs.

This all leaves me feeling the only reason there will be to fly a raven is not being able to fly a typhoon.

Nice changes overall, was really needed!

But when will you fix the problems concerning torps? look here, no answer since 2 months, makes me very sad...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=207956

When I understood right these changes are made to make cruise missiles more viable in PVP environment where the biggest issue is the time it takes for the missiles to apply damage. The only change that actually affects this is 20% increase in missile speed. Does 20% flight time increase really make a difference? This is also affected by scan resolution not only missile flight time.

Therefore my out of the box suggestions would be:
a) Make it so that cruise missile launchers improve locking time.
b) Make that they would not require complete lock to fire / lock to target, maybe you could start firing as you acquire lock.
c) Perhaps you could prelaunch volleys to space that would seek into target that you were locking to. (This would improve initial volley for missiles making them for sure better in pvp)
d) Make it perhaps so that you could start firing missiles inside cloak and that it would not immediately break cloak (delayed decloak)

* And please take off the damage bonus or cut it down. To balance that you do not break PVE with these changes! Or increase missile volley too much (don't forget that missile DPS is omni damage and when you can choose volley that pierces through enemy resistance this is simply OP)

Hey, thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

I just want to make sure that I understand you correctly. You'd rather assault an unarmed POS with a 450 DPS Bomber than a 1150 DPS Raven because the Bomber can use a covops cloak? I can see why you'd want to attack an armed POS with something better than the Raven. I've always been a fan of laser ships myself, but I'm not aware of any laser ships that can project 1000 DPS to 150km. I suppose you can argue that you just want to hug the POS shield and use close range ammo, but even then you're probably looking at losing a fair amount to resists.

I admit that I don't fully understand your reasoning, but you've already illustrated your far superior knowledge of the game by categorically dismissing any possible PVP use case of the Raven.



Oh I see. You somehow think that we don't know what a Warp Disruptor is. I can see why you'd make that mistake, given that we're Heretic Army. It's kinda a new module to us given the years of Orca camping, but we're coming around to learning how to use it. Someone once told me that I can fit a warp disruptor to a tanky battlecruiser or battleship and warp it to the gate and tackle whoever's on it. May be hearsay, but I kinda want to try it some time!

Another crazy thing that I thought was that Cruise would actually do pretty good DPS to battleships and battlecruisers. There's this one extremely rare PVE-only ship called "The Drake" that would take full damage of 840 DPS from a Raven at 200km.

Another crazy thing is that it appears that a somewhat common PVE-only ship named "The Drake" will take full damage from the Raven and Typhoon. It looks like most Battlecruisers will too, and cruisers like the Vexor and Maller can expect to take ~500 DPS or so. Another really weird thing that I thought was that the Tornado had a 17 second cycle time or something.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but the damage outlay for the first 60 seconds should look something like this:
Tornado: T0 6552
Raven: T16 5126
Raven: T22 10252
Tornado: T17 13104
Raven: T28 15378
Tornado: T34 19656
Raven: T34 20504
Raven: T40 25630
Raven: T46 30756
Tornado: T51 26208
Raven: T52 35882
Raven: T58 41008

It's almost like if the target is a BC or BS then the Tornado permanently falls behind at T=40, but ... well, that's just ~mathy stuff~ I guess. :)



Oh cool. Large, static objects... like battlecruisers. Got it.

-Liang

Ed: I'm going to bed. Good night. :)

the whole problem is that the damage of  raven always will be reduced expense that the ship is not in place
I badly imagine a ship that is moving at a speed of less than 120 m / s
so your numbers are not correct

Everyone is talking about Raven, but imo phoon benefits more
it has:
1. ability to fit massive tank, making it better for fleets
2. much better damage projection due to explosion velocity bonus.

as for the range, last few years of eve history proves that extreme ranges are not important. Rokh always could go damage at 250km, but even in fleet doctrines that had them, you could see fits for ~120 km

Liang is suggesting that because damage is boosted so much, Raven will occupy role of a long range damage dealer. i don't think it will, but let's see.

RIght EFT updated with new Cruise values.

The fit below (about 600m ISK cheap fit) gives...

829 Fury DPS (87 Exp Velocity, 272 Exp Radius) - More than capable of smacking anything Cruiser sized at range or in close.
592 Precision DPS (124 Exp Velocity, 143 Exp Radius) - Again basically full damage to anything Cruiser sized.
592 T1 Damage (103 Exp Velocity, 158 Exp Radius) - Velocity is a bit low but anything in web range is still screwed.

The values above still dont take into account the 2 Target Painters or the Web. A Merlin with a MSE and 3x CDFE has a sig radius of 52m. With 2 TP's on it the sig radius is going to end up at 79m.

So 55% of the Damage from the Exp Radius difference on Precision gives 325.6 DPS without taking into account the Frigate moving.

Outside of web range the DPS would be 170, in web range the DPS would be 382. If the Merlin had an AB On it the DPS would drop to 71 and 160. This doesn't include drones but in web range with Hammerhead II's and no AB a Merlin would take 540 DPS in its face of the 751 the SNI is putting out which is more than respectable.

For PVE applications that is more than enough and to be honest with the fit below you could use Fury on Cruiser and above although T1 might be better because of the Explosion Velocity (you could either swap 1 Rigor for a Flare or use T1 ammo to fix that).

In PVP applications you would lose some of the DPS listed but based on the tank on the SNI you could easily still do at least 33% DPS against Frigates with a PVP fit.

[Scorpion Navy Issue, PVE]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
EM Ward Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
X-Large Shield Booster II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5



I really hope this helps to qualm peoples fears about the Explosion increase, the damage buff more than offsets it.

The DPS btw on the fit above with the Hammerhead II's and Fury is 988, if anyone tries to tell me that is crap considering the damage application you can get you need your head examining.

The weapon system is still broken, since missiles cannot be used against targets smaller than the ship using the said weapon system.

That's mostly a good improvement, except for the increase in explosion radius that is definitely a move in the bad direction.

Why not removing entierly the sig radius negative impact on all missiles, leaving only the explosion velocity ? If the sig radius is higher than the requirement of the missile, then the explosion velocity becomes more flexible. This keeps both stats important, while allowing to damage smaller targets if they are slowed, exactly like other weapon systems.

Of course it's not really the right post to talk about that, so...

Agree. Moreover you should be able to use them without the Painters.
Not only you can't use painters on a long range, but also they have a long cycle time so switching targets will be a pain in the a$$.

it would need a change of game mechanics. But what I think would make peopel satisfied woudl be if a cruise missile could be fired.. the raven could warp out .... and the missile fired would still hit and damage the target. That could lead to some interesting tactics