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Remove corp friendly fire [in high sec]
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Keeper O'Secrets
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-04-17 00:18:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Keeper O'Secrets
i propose:

the removal of the ability for corp members to shoot eachother, without entering a duel, in high sec, without concord interfierence.

with the new duel system, is there any need for it to remain

it only causes issues such as it being risky to bring people into a corp, and has also been used by experienced players to lure newbies in just to be killed....

can anyone give me a reason why it SHOULD stay?

/KoS
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-04-17 00:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
To lure newbies in the corp to kill them.
So they can learn how harsh is the EVE environment.
And learn when they can trust or don't trust in people.

And to avoid Concordooken, when you show your love to your friends by giving them a surprise volley in their shields.

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Keeper O'Secrets
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-04-17 01:07:18 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
To lure newbies in the corp to kill them.
So they can learn how harsh is the EVE environment.
And learn when they can trust or don't trust in people.

And to avoid Concordooken, when you show your love to your friends by giving them a surprise volley in their shields.


still waiting for a reason why it should be kept....

CONCORD is there to provide, in a basic rule of thumb, a punishment for non consentual, non war pvp in high sec.

I dont remember there being a warning about joining corps that tells (new players) atleast the risk of joining a corp and being shot at the second you undock, by your own corp.
DataRunner Attor
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-04-17 01:08:21 UTC
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
with the new duel system, is there any need for it to remain

it only causes issues such as it being risky to bring people into a corp, and has also been used by experienced players to lure newbies in just to be killed....

can anyone give me a reason why it SHOULD stay?

/KoS


Wasn't this ability to target friendlies back in the legacy age, cause shooting anyone with anything be it a weapon, a target painter, and a remote repair would incur the wrath of concord? If so, then EVEN IF ccp wanted to remove this, this type of code would be bury deep in the legacy code, and thus...A pain the arse to remove it without breaking some other part of the code.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.”
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#5 - 2013-04-17 01:10:31 UTC
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
with the new duel system, is there any need for it to remain

it only causes issues such as it being risky to bring people into a corp, and has also been used by experienced players to lure newbies in just to be killed....

can anyone give me a reason why it SHOULD stay?

/KoS


Because betrayal, theft, and sabotage SHOULD be a part of this game.

It's the only game where it is. And CCP is the only company with the balls enough to let it stay.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Keeper O'Secrets
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-04-17 01:14:17 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
with the new duel system, is there any need for it to remain

it only causes issues such as it being risky to bring people into a corp, and has also been used by experienced players to lure newbies in just to be killed....

can anyone give me a reason why it SHOULD stay?

/KoS


Because betrayal, theft, and sabotage SHOULD be a part of this game.

It's the only game where it is. And CCP is the only company with the balls enough to let it stay.


how do the rules for non consentual pvp for someone not in a corp with someone else, vary if they are in the same corp?
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#7 - 2013-04-17 01:17:42 UTC
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
Ruze wrote:
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
with the new duel system, is there any need for it to remain

it only causes issues such as it being risky to bring people into a corp, and has also been used by experienced players to lure newbies in just to be killed....

can anyone give me a reason why it SHOULD stay?

/KoS


Because betrayal, theft, and sabotage SHOULD be a part of this game.

It's the only game where it is. And CCP is the only company with the balls enough to let it stay.


how do the rules for non consentual pvp for someone not in a corp with someone else, vary if they are in the same corp?


You can only be betrayed by someone you trust.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Denarus Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-04-17 01:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Denarus Arran
How would disabling friendly fire better the eve experience?

One reason this would mess with the game off the top of my head- you're roaming or doing operations in null with your corp. One corp member drops fleet, joins a hostile bridging fleet and lights a cyno for them. You can't pop the cyno as he's part of your corp and friendly fire rules apply -.-

PEWPEWPEW
Keeper O'Secrets
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-04-17 01:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Keeper O'Secrets
Denarus Arran wrote:
How would disabling friendly fire better the eve experience?

One reason this would mess with the game off the top of my head- you're roaming or doing operations in null with your corp. One corp member drops fleet, joins a hostile bridging fleet and lights a cyno for them. You can't pop the cyno as he's part of your corp and friendly fire rules apply -.-


erm... low and 0.0 have nothing to do with high sec, as in corp or not, you are free to attack them

this is not what i am looking at being changed

i am looking at the issue of, in high sec, the corp system being used to avoid concord.

sorry if i didnt make that clear in the first post, will amend now :)
DataRunner Attor
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-04-17 01:35:20 UTC
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
Denarus Arran wrote:
How would disabling friendly fire better the eve experience?

One reason this would mess with the game off the top of my head- you're roaming or doing operations in null with your corp. One corp member drops fleet, joins a hostile bridging fleet and lights a cyno for them. You can't pop the cyno as he's part of your corp and friendly fire rules apply -.-


erm... low and 0.0 have nothing to do with high sec, as in corp or not, you are free to attack them

this is not what i am looking at being changed

i am looking at the issue of, in high sec, the corp system being used to avoid concord.

sorry if i didnt make that clear in the first post, will amend now :)



and this is why you do your own research. you find many people now-adays will join a corp cause they escape certain taxes, and mass hysteria. They themselves do very little research, and thus they lose their ship, their stuff, and so on.

On the other hand if you did your research, you will find. "Is this corp a good corp to join?" Start asking the hard questions, most corps looking for a cheap kill will soon stop talking to you.

Because of my research, I have found out ahead of time on why never to accept conversations from test and goonswarm 'recruiters.' (hint hint, they an't recruiting you, they are just making a cheap buck.)

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.”
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#11 - 2013-04-17 01:37:21 UTC
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
Denarus Arran wrote:
How would disabling friendly fire better the eve experience?

One reason this would mess with the game off the top of my head- you're roaming or doing operations in null with your corp. One corp member drops fleet, joins a hostile bridging fleet and lights a cyno for them. You can't pop the cyno as he's part of your corp and friendly fire rules apply -.-


erm... low and 0.0 have nothing to do with high sec, as in corp or not, you are free to attack them

this is not what i am looking at being changed

i am looking at the issue of, in high sec, the corp system being used to avoid concord.

sorry if i didnt make that clear in the first post, will amend now :)


Why do you want to change a thing which sets this game apart from every other on the market? Why do you personally want to ruin the experience of tens of thousands of players who have intentionally chose, and play, this game because it is what they liked, not because of what they would like to change it to be?

What is your personal beef with a game fully focused on pvp? The game has been around for 10 years with corp theft and betrayal and ganking and the 'evils' that no other game has?

Why do you want this ruined? For your own selfishness?

Aren't you currently betraying the ideals of your fellow gaming group? Aren't you attempting to steal something from them?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Keeper O'Secrets
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-04-17 01:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Keeper O'Secrets
Ruze wrote:


...stuff...



other side of the coin. i am more interested in how the gaming experience is ruined by certian corps who abuse the corp friendly fire function. as pointed out above, this is one of [if not the only game], that allows this feature, yet there is no warning of such when joining the corps.

please do not troll me with how this idea will ruin the game experience.... infact tell me how removal of this feature will ruin it [by giving a few specific examples of how removal of this ability will "ruin" the game....]
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#13 - 2013-04-17 01:49:15 UTC
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
Ruze wrote:
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
Denarus Arran wrote:
How would disabling friendly fire better the eve experience?

One reason this would mess with the game off the top of my head- you're roaming or doing operations in null with your corp. One corp member drops fleet, joins a hostile bridging fleet and lights a cyno for them. You can't pop the cyno as he's part of your corp and friendly fire rules apply -.-


erm... low and 0.0 have nothing to do with high sec, as in corp or not, you are free to attack them

this is not what i am looking at being changed

i am looking at the issue of, in high sec, the corp system being used to avoid concord.

sorry if i didnt make that clear in the first post, will amend now :)


Why do you want to change a thing which sets this game apart from every other on the market? Why do you personally want to ruin the experience of tens of thousands of players who have intentionally chose, and play, this game because it is what they liked, not because of what they would like to change it to be?

What is your personal beef with a game fully focused on pvp? The game has been around for 10 years with corp theft and betrayal and ganking and the 'evils' that no other game has?

Why do you want this ruined? For your own selfishness?

Aren't you currently betraying the ideals of your fellow gaming group? Aren't you attempting to steal something from them?


other side of the coin. i am more interested in how the gaming experience is ruined by certian corps who abuse the corp friendly fire function. as pointed out above, this is one of [if not the only game], that allows this feature, yet there is no warning of such when joining the corps.

please do not troll me with how this idea will ruin the game experience.... infact tell me how removal of this feature will ruin it?


Here's my difference in opinion from yours. I don't feel the game experience is ruined by betrayel. I feel it is enhanced. The spies, the intrigue, the betrayals, the thefts, the sabotage ... all of this adds flavor, danger, and excitement. Politics. The danger of open space. The sometimes lonelyness, the overpowering options, the viciousness of life.

All elements of a game that is one of a kind. When you hinder those for the sake of 'it hurt my feelings', you attack my love of this game. You attack why I have been here for years, and will stay for years more as long as the core fabric isn't ruined.

There are penalties and thought processes to consider. But Aura does warn new players, even if they don't listen. Turn on the tutorial again and read it. It tells you to watch for the dangers of space, to be careful who you trust.

You will be stronger, and wiser, because of the vicousness of this game. You weren't coddled, and if you can learn, you'll read the warnings the next time. You'll be ready for the betrayal. You'll work harder to keep yourself safer.

Or ... you'll go on a campaign to change the game, when what makes the game what it is is what you hate. In the end, you'll quit and not come back, because it's the game itself that you don't like.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Keeper O'Secrets
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-04-17 02:06:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Keeper O'Secrets
Ruze wrote:


Here's my difference in opinion from yours. I don't feel the game experience is ruined by betrayel. I feel it is enhanced. The spies, the intrigue, the betrayals, the thefts, the sabotage ... all of this adds flavor, danger, and excitement. Politics. The danger of open space. The sometimes lonelyness, the overpowering options, the viciousness of life.

All elements of a game that is one of a kind. When you hinder those for the sake of 'it hurt my feelings', you attack my love of this game. You attack why I have been here for years, and will stay for years more as long as the core fabric isn't ruined.

There are penalties and thought processes to consider. But Aura does warn new players, even if they don't listen. Turn on the tutorial again and read it. It tells you to watch for the dangers of space, to be careful who you trust.

You will be stronger, and wiser, because of the vicousness of this game. You weren't coddled, and if you can learn, you'll read the warnings the next time. You'll be ready for the betrayal. You'll work harder to keep yourself safer.

Or ... you'll go on a campaign to change the game, when what makes the game what it is is what you hate. In the end, you'll quit and not come back, because it's the game itself that you don't like.


no i love how the game is, and respect the dynamics of the meta game in regards to betrayal and all them lovely things.

however, what i cant comprehend is a mechanic that makes little sense when it is used only to grief new players.

all in all, i am not after any change other than the ability for new players to be able to join a corp without being fracked over by people that pride themselves with having found a loophole to high sec ganking without losses. eve is hard, brutal even. that is not what i wish to change in the slightest, but can you see the reasoning behind my post?

all of eve has risk yes, every time you undock you are at risk, and loosing ships/pods/isk/whatever is part of the game. again, not something that should be changes as i fully agree it is what makes eve special. so please dont mistake this as a thread that is crying for eve to be wow-ified, cos i two would leave if that happened.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-04-17 02:07:10 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Noobs these days are either refused entry to decent corps due to paranoia, or lured into griefer corps and popped. They then let their sub expire, either from boredom in npc corp or from rage of being popped and podded by corpmates, even though the value comes to like a mil isk.

This rarely happened in the early years of Eve, and when it does it's hailed as rare moments of lol. Nowadays it's everyday occurrence, and not worth talking about.

It's one of these emergent gameplay aspects, botting among them, that's ruining the game as well as hurting CCP's bottom line, once they became widespread. Time to fix it.
Keeper O'Secrets
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-04-17 02:10:39 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Noobs these days are either refused entry to decent corps due to paranoia, or lured into griefer corps and popped. They then let their sub expire, either from boredom in npc corp or from rage of being popped and podded by corpmates, even though the value comes to like a mil isk.

This rarely happened in the early years of Eve, and when it does it's hailed as rare moments of lol. Nowadays it's everyday occurrence, and not worth talking about.

It's one of these emergent gameplay aspects, botting among them, that's ruining the game as well as hurting CCP's bottom line, once they became widespread. Time to fix it.


thanks you. finally someone else who sees the problem to newer players....
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#17 - 2013-04-17 02:20:42 UTC
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
Please Remove risk from highsec.

No.

Pretty sure I'm going to log in just to wardec you for this thread.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#18 - 2013-04-17 02:22:11 UTC
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Noobs these days are either refused entry to decent corps due to paranoia, or lured into griefer corps and popped. They then let their sub expire, either from boredom in npc corp or from rage of being popped and podded by corpmates, even though the value comes to like a mil isk.

This rarely happened in the early years of Eve, and when it does it's hailed as rare moments of lol. Nowadays it's everyday occurrence, and not worth talking about.

It's one of these emergent gameplay aspects, botting among them, that's ruining the game as well as hurting CCP's bottom line, once they became widespread. Time to fix it.


thanks you. finally someone else who sees the problem to newer players....


So your proposal is to prevent friendly fire amongst corp mates? So what happens when someone steals from you, or locks you out of your own hisec POS? What happens when they run off with your orca, or start salvaging your missions without your permission? Or is giving the enemy intel on your fleet?

I know, you probably would never shoot these gents out of common courtesy. You have options, of course. Put a bounty on him. Hire a merc to hunt him down. Boot him from corp.

But will that stop the new players from being used? No. Because they expect things to be made safe for them. They feel it's owed to them to be protected. And thus, they'll be lead into incursions and used as sacrificial bait to a bunch of Sansha. Brought along in a frigate on a Angels Extravaganza mission. Left to mine in .5 space and eaten by rats. Setup by alt gank squads.

They will still be stolen from. They will still have their assets destroyed. And they will still be used. Because it's not new players being targeted, but the ignorant and the unprepared.

So while you can solve one small problem (at the sacrifice of a valid game mechanic, as I myself have joined enemy corps and killed them from within), it won't solve the one your using as your basis of argument.

And to solve THAT ... to protect and coddle the new player from their own ignorance ... you'll have to break EvE.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Keeper O'Secrets
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-04-17 02:24:55 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
Please Remove risk from highsec.

No.

Pretty sure I'm going to log in just to wardec you for this thread.


if you read the entire thread, you will realise you miss quoted a little bit there
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-04-17 02:25:27 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Keeper O'Secrets wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Noobs these days are either refused entry to decent corps due to paranoia, or lured into griefer corps and popped. They then let their sub expire, either from boredom in npc corp or from rage of being popped and podded by corpmates, even though the value comes to like a mil isk.

This rarely happened in the early years of Eve, and when it does it's hailed as rare moments of lol. Nowadays it's everyday occurrence, and not worth talking about.

It's one of these emergent gameplay aspects, botting among them, that's ruining the game as well as hurting CCP's bottom line, once they became widespread. Time to fix it.


thanks you. finally someone else who sees the problem to newer players....


So your proposal is to prevent friendly fire amongst corp mates? So what happens when someone steals from you, or locks you out of your own hisec POS? What happens when they run off with your orca, or start salvaging your missions without your permission? Or is giving the enemy intel on your fleet?


That's risk working as intended. The only ones CCP need to protect and retain are the noobs who can hardly read an overview. Your POS is your own problem.
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