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New Battleships - Racial Ewar/Disruption
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Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-04-16 09:00:39 UTC
One of the things thats bugging me at the moment is the nature of racial ewar and how it seems to be prevalent for Caldari and Amarr in the new BS lineup. There are oddities in the new destroyers also, but its interesting that the most powerful Racial Ewar is represented and implemented in the BS lineup for these two races.

When it was the lone Caldari Scorpion it was odd and unique, but now, its not. The new Geddon will, with its neut range bonus be powerful as anti tackle (like the Scorp) and very difficult to engage.

Why is there no Gallente BS with point range bonus, or (I know I know) damp bonus?

Why is there no Minmatar BS with web range bonus, or (I know I know) painting bonus?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#2 - 2013-04-16 09:44:36 UTC
Because Amarr master race.

Oh god.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#3 - 2013-04-16 10:15:07 UTC
I don't think it's a question of the Gallente and Minmatar BS lineup being in need of an EWar platform. I think the reason the Geddon got changed is mostly that the Amarr BS lineup was very homogeneous (large pulses! More large pulses!). Further, neuts + drones has/had already been established as the secondary Amarr weapons platform, so it made a natural choice for widening the Amarr BS weapon selection.
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-04-16 10:40:53 UTC
Kasutra wrote:
I don't think it's a question of the Gallente and Minmatar BS lineup being in need of an EWar platform. I think the reason the Geddon got changed is mostly that the Amarr BS lineup was very homogeneous (large pulses! More large pulses!). Further, neuts + drones has/had already been established as the secondary Amarr weapons platform, so it made a natural choice for widening the Amarr BS weapon selection.



Which leaves Minmater with ... Damage ... Autocannons/Missiles? Still able to hit Geddon (for example) - try it ranged with torps and no tackle due to neuting?

Gallente with ... Damage .. Drones/Blasters - again try it with no cap on blasters, no tackle on Geddon?

It turns the game into .. well .. Bring ECCM and Cap Injector .. or get shafted by Amarr/Caldari - they don't need to bring props to counter your web/ point if you come into their range - its wipe out with ECM or wipe out with no active mods.

Its not 'bitterness' here - its simply that classic - Scorp on scan ... everyone redock and fit ECCM ... (if you can redock). Now we get - Geddon on scan ... everyone redock and fit Cap Injector. And god forbid - you meet both - then midslotarama!

As we all know - the forums will come back and say, fit injector, fit ECCM. To counter the Neut (a highslot item) I need to compromise my tackle, speed, ewar (webs/point) etc. Scorp simply hits the 'I win or run' button. Now Geddon gets that button. Or the other mantra, is bring your own.
Herman Klaus
Touched By Klaus
#5 - 2013-04-16 11:01:13 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
Kasutra wrote:
I don't think it's a question of the Gallente and Minmatar BS lineup being in need of an EWar platform. I think the reason the Geddon got changed is mostly that the Amarr BS lineup was very homogeneous (large pulses! More large pulses!). Further, neuts + drones has/had already been established as the secondary Amarr weapons platform, so it made a natural choice for widening the Amarr BS weapon selection.



Which leaves Minmater with ... Damage ... Autocannons/Missiles? Still able to hit Geddon (for example) - try it ranged with torps and no tackle due to neuting?

Gallente with ... Damage .. Drones/Blasters - again try it with no cap on blasters, no tackle on Geddon?

It turns the game into .. well .. Bring ECCM and Cap Injector .. or get shafted by Amarr/Caldari - they don't need to bring props to counter your web/ point if you come into their range - its wipe out with ECM or wipe out with no active mods.

Its not 'bitterness' here - its simply that classic - Scorp on scan ... everyone redock and fit ECCM ... (if you can redock). Now we get - Geddon on scan ... everyone redock and fit Cap Injector. And god forbid - you meet both - then midslotarama!

As we all know - the forums will come back and say, fit injector, fit ECCM. To counter the Neut (a highslot item) I need to compromise my tackle, speed, ewar (webs/point) etc. Scorp simply hits the 'I win or run' button. Now Geddon gets that button. Or the other mantra, is bring your own.


How do you stop a Curse/Pilgrim? Neut them out. Adapt or die.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#6 - 2013-04-16 14:43:51 UTC
Best way to stop a neut boat is damp the hell out of it or if your ballsy neut it right back, I thought everyone knew this What?

Oderint Dum Metuant
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#7 - 2013-04-16 18:20:22 UTC
fight ewar with ewar
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#8 - 2013-04-16 18:27:54 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
One of the things thats bugging me at the moment is the nature of racial ewar and how it seems to be prevalent for Caldari and Amarr in the new BS lineup. There are oddities in the new destroyers also, but its interesting that the most powerful Racial Ewar is represented and implemented in the BS lineup for these two races.

When it was the lone Caldari Scorpion it was odd and unique, but now, its not. The new Geddon will, with its neut range bonus be powerful as anti tackle (like the Scorp) and very difficult to engage.

Why is there no Gallente BS with point range bonus, or (I know I know) damp bonus?

Why is there no Minmatar BS with web range bonus, or (I know I know) painting bonus?
Because it shows no imagination whatsoever, and steps on a role already fulfilled by T1 and T2 specialised ships.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Noisrevbus
#9 - 2013-04-16 19:13:56 UTC
I've been touching on this in several topics lately, it's become my current peeve...

As with most things, it's a question of the old racial traits being usurped. Caldari once had non-specialist EW ships because they were "the EW race" (it was part of their general sniping stratagem).

Today, with the old roles, traits or core strategies erroded it would probably be better just scrapping the non-specialist EW bonuses altogether than spreading them around and causing more concerns and balance issues.

Go back a few years and I would have plead a case for why Caldari had the Scorp, BB and Griffin. Now, it's more understandable when we see concerns raised about Minmatar and Gallente EW-BS and similar. The proposed neut-bonus is not a very good idea, giving such powerful bonuses to such an already powerful class of ships; and giving specialist bonuses that involve more powerful systems such as points and webs would be even more questionable.

It's probably better scrapping the oldschool Scorp and just giving the race an "attack" missile ship and a "tanky" missile ship, letting the Scorp be a more direct predecessor to the SNI.

Very little in today's meta call for a BS, LR, ECM platform. If someone run ingenuitive tactics with Scorps today (it's not like there's no potential) i'd be willing to listen of course, because i am usually in favour of rewarding out-of-box and very much against the common streamlining that punish out-of-box ingenuity... but in this case i don't quite see it myself tbh.
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-04-17 00:03:55 UTC
I should be concerned about a buffer tanked Minmatar ship with capless weapons being neuted within 40km? Not the most difficult change to adapt to.