These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Black Rise Death Squads, Immortal Soldiers

Author
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-04-15 23:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:


Yet that's not what came out of your statement: "The average Caldari citizen is more likely to be gunned down by their own government than these rouge soldiers."

Sure, you may have been aiming your argument at the boots-n-bludgeons brigade, but that didn't come across at all. Instead, it merely sounded partisan.


I believe that I said what I was trying to get across. If I failed to be clear about my message then that's my fault. You may interpret my words and draw conclusions from them as you please. All I can say is that I did not intend on coming across as apologist and If I did then I apologize for any misunderstandings.

Shintoko Akohoshi wrote:
You're a journalist. Shouldn't your journalistic statements be open to debate? Shouldn't they be open to questions about their veracity?


Yes, my journalistic statements should be open to debate. However, I feel that it should be done as literal as possible to prevent vagueness.

Because I feel that this conversation isn't going to go anywhere good, allow me to take a step back and answer the original questions that you presented to me regardless of how I may feel about them. I think I may have gotten off on the wrong foot with you or vice versa. Hopefully doing this will clear things up. My answers have been bolded

Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:



First of all, does it matter how likely it is that the average Caldari will be gunned down by one of these death squads? Does it matter how many Caldari are gunned down by them?

No it does not. Regardless of the likelyhood or death toll they are still a threat to many innocent Caldari people. Are you really casting yourself as an apologist for death squads? As if they were a reasonable and acceptable phenomenon?

I do not intend on appearing as an apologist and I apologize if my rhetoric suggest otherwise. This is not a reasonable nor acceptable phenomenon

Secondly, how many Caldari do you estimate are gunned down by the State?

I cannot give an accurate estimate due to the lack of information coming from the State.

You do know that the State has been funneling immense quantities of resources into a century-long tube-child program designed to increase the population, right?

The State no longer supports the tube child programs but corporate entities might. Regardless, these killings and executions are not intended to depopulate the State, rather rid it of those that the Provist find a potential threat to their regime.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#42 - 2013-04-15 23:24:55 UTC
It's worth noting that Kaalakiota is headed by Heth, and has been militant since its inception. This does not mean, however, that targeted killings occur frequently in the State. It merely confirms that at one protest, security and protestors both lost control of the situation, and people died. That executives subsequently resigned in protest shows very strongly how citizens reacted to this.

Fred, you are entirely within your rights to think that the State governs with a jackboot and an iron fist. However, it is important to remember that one should not generalize the actions of the Provists with the State generally. With luck, as Heth loses influence and power, we will be able to marginalize them, and push for a state that more accurately reflects our ideals.

Until then, such claims as you make should be backed by proof. The burden of proof always lays with the person making charges. Vague reference to news black outs and anecdotes from distant relations are not proof, as they are completely unverifiable.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-04-15 23:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Shintoko Akahoshi
I think we're on the same page now, Fredfredbug4. Thank you for that.

I still want to pick on one nit, though, simply because I believe journalists should be held to high standards. You stated that Caldari citizens were more likely to be killed by the State than by Gallente death squads, yet you later stated that you had no information about the number of Caldari killed by the State. Isn't this a contradiction?

I'll admit, by the way, that my tube-child statement wasn't particularly germane to the topic.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-04-16 00:21:10 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
It's worth noting that Kaalakiota is headed by Heth, and has been militant since its inception. This does not mean, however, that targeted killings occur frequently in the State. It merely confirms that at one protest, security and protestors both lost control of the situation, and people died. That executives subsequently resigned in protest shows very strongly how citizens reacted to this.


I suppose that I could be drawing my own conclusions here, and rather hypocritically at that. However provist brutality is well recorded. Before the proverbial **** hit the proverbial fan on Caldari Prime just a few weeks ago, Provist security forces frequently fired on both Caldari and Gallente civilians alike. Provist thugs across the State are willing to use force, even the deadly variety to accomplish their goals.

Of course, Caldari Prime was already extremely unstable and under the right circumstances, even our Federal Soldiers (not to be associated with the monstrosities roaming Black Rise) might commit the same act. Hopefully we won't see that happen.

Markoto Priano wrote:
Fred, you are entirely within your rights to think that the State governs with a jackboot and an iron fist. However, it is important to remember that one should not generalize the actions of the Provists with the State generally. With luck, as Heth loses influence and power, we will be able to marginalize them, and push for a state that more accurately reflects our ideals.


I consider the Caldari people that I respect, adore, and am even blood related to completely different from the Provist. The problem is that the provist control the State almost 100%. The other corporations certainly have an influence, but can be easily overridden.

Makoto Priano wrote:
Until then, such claims as you make should be backed by proof. The burden of proof always lays with the person making charges. Vague reference to news black outs and anecdotes from distant relations are not proof, as they are completely unverifiable.


I personally acknowledge that I don't have definite proof of what is going on over there. I'm merely taking the information that I have available, even if it is limited and drawing conclusions from there. Whether or not these conclusions prove to be correct will be up to the amount of information that flows.

When the Provist regime finally collapses, hopefully the truth will be revealed. Whether or not it corresponds with what I believe to be true is a different story. I've been proven wrong before.

Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:


I still want to pick on one nit, though, simply because I believe journalists should be held to high standards. You stated that Caldari citizens were more likely to be killed by the State than by Gallente death squads, yet you later stated that you had no information about the number of Caldari killed by the State. Isn't this a contradiction?


Not necessarily. While I do admit to rather hypocritically drawing my own conclusions, I still have enough information to lead me to those conclusions.

Take a headline of a fictional news story that says "Massive increase in fruit production" and lets assume that it is 100% true. Obviously we can see that fruit production has apparently increased. Can we estimate how much it increased from the headline? No we cannot as there is not information leading to that estimate. Does that mean there wasn't an increase? No as we can clearly see that the increase has happened.

Do you get what I am saying?

If you are wondering what the initial catalyst was that lead me to my thoughts then it would be the massacre of protesters and the crackdown that followed, and input of friends and relatives in the State.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#45 - 2013-04-16 01:20:06 UTC
Fred, you have provided no additional information, despite a prodigious amount of breath spent on the subject. I'm going to have to discount your statements.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-04-16 02:29:33 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Fred, you have provided no additional information, despite a prodigious amount of breath spent on the subject. I'm going to have to discount your statements.


Very well. If something definite comes then I will be sure to to let you know.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2013-04-16 03:44:37 UTC
Wasn't there a statement from the Federal Navy that these killteams represented Black Ops experiments that had decided to go rogue when their funding was pulled?

That's pretty definite - as a confession of responsibility, even if not culpability for the actual atrocities.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#48 - 2013-04-16 07:47:33 UTC
Well, ain't every day you get a Jaijii to admit they don't have any idea of what they're talking about when they refer to the State.

Good progress, I reckon.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.

Xao Chu-Li
Doomheim
#49 - 2013-04-16 10:11:39 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Wasn't there a statement from the Federal Navy that these killteams represented Black Ops experiments that had decided to go rogue when their funding was pulled?

That's pretty definite - as a confession of responsibility, even if not culpability for the actual atrocities.


I believe you are referring to this announcement specifically:

Quote:
“The Federation Navy has ended its immortal soldier program. This squadron of soldiers was officially taken off duty, but has apparently gone rogue and stolen Naval equipment to use in continued aggressive action against the Caldari. The Navy will take all appropriate action to apprehend these criminals and try them for war crimes.”


It should be noted that holding the Federation Navy accountable to apprehending and executing justice against these rogues is fair. It should also be noted that if the State apprehends them first, it would be well within its right to exact its own justice as the Federation Navy has denounced any affiliation to them.

However, refrain from stating that this makes the Federation Navy culpable for the atrocities of a rogue element. The Federation Navy can no more control rogue elements than the State can, as evidenced by the similar event that occurred in Couster. Let us not find new ways to point fingers at one another and instead try and deal with these rogue elements swiftly.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#50 - 2013-04-16 10:18:35 UTC
I stopped short of naming the Federation Navy as culpable, Xao - just responsible.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Xao Chu-Li
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-04-16 10:35:43 UTC
Absolutely, I was speaking to a more general audience. Forgive my lack of clarification.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#52 - 2013-04-16 21:18:53 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
The average Caldari citizen is more likely to be gunned down by their own government than these rouge soldiers.


Please show us your statistical analysis comparing the number of Caldari who have died at Caldari hands versus the number who have died at Gallentean hands over the last, say, ten years. This should be interesting.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Xao Chu-Li
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-04-16 21:51:14 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Please show us your statistical analysis comparing the number of Caldari who have died at Caldari hands versus the number who have died at Gallentean hands over the last, say, ten years. This should be interesting.


You do realize this has absolutely no bearing on his original statement, don't you?

Your demand would include all military action against military assets and personnel, his original assertion has only to do with an isolated rogue band. A more accurate demand would be to see a statistical analysis of Caldari killed by Caldari forces versus the number of Caldari killed specifically by this rogue group since the announcement of its existence.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#54 - 2013-04-16 22:32:12 UTC
Xao Chu-Li wrote:
A more accurate demand would be to see a statistical analysis of Caldari killed by Caldari forces versus the number of Caldari killed specifically by this rogue group since the announcement of its existence.


That would not be more accurate, that would just be selectively biased to only give you the numbers that you want to see.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

BloodBird
The Crucible.
#55 - 2013-04-17 00:13:19 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Xao Chu-Li wrote:
A more accurate demand would be to see a statistical analysis of Caldari killed by Caldari forces versus the number of Caldari killed specifically by this rogue group since the announcement of its existence.


That would not be more accurate, that would just be selectively biased to only give you the numbers that you want to see.


Luftschreck speaks of selective bias and seeing only what you want to see.

Comedy gold.


Xao Chu-Li
Doomheim
#56 - 2013-04-17 00:15:07 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
That would not be more accurate, that would just be selectively biased to only give you the numbers that you want to see.


Please, return to school and obtain a legitimate education.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#57 - 2013-04-17 00:33:15 UTC
Xao Chu-Li wrote:
Please, return to school and obtain a legitimate education.


And by that you mean a Federation school that will teach me to only believe what the Federation wants me to. Got it. Roll

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

BloodBird
The Crucible.
#58 - 2013-04-17 01:51:51 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Xao Chu-Li wrote:
Please, return to school and obtain a legitimate education.


And by that you mean a Federation school that will teach me to only believe what the Federation wants me to. Got it. Roll


I asked something of you earlier. Would you kindly at least respond as opposed to ignoring it and persisting with your shameful behavior?

I was educated by "A federation school" and I am considerably more open-minded, civilized, knowledgeable and level-headed than you. Evidence speaks against your baseless assertions.

Then again it almost always does.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#59 - 2013-04-17 11:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Seriphyn Inhonores
Perhaps the Caldari capsuleers here are feeling a bit purposeless since the Caldari Prime issue was resolved, and are thus trying to scrape the barrel for a reason to gear their efforts against the Federation. This would explain their use of conjecture as "fact".

Before joining the Destiny Foundation, I fought against Caldari Navy ships massacring civilian colonies in deadspace. Maybe they were rogue, in fact, it's quite likely they were. Just because that never made the interstellar news, is it less important? We all know how the media is selectionist, more often than not.

"The news said it, therefore it must be true"
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#60 - 2013-04-17 11:58:09 UTC
My time between Megas and working with Megas with conflicting ideals has given me an interesting perspective on the media and propaganda in general.

Namely, I have no time for taking things at face value.

Nice try, though.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.