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Am I too stupid to play EVE?
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Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-04-16 00:47:28 UTC
Rocketfeller wrote:
There are so many contradictions in EVE. I am trying to reconcile not trusting people with joining a corp. I don't know anyone in RL who plays EVE. Any corp I join will be total strangers, and I won't trust them, nor will I expect them to trust me. Now I guess this is another case of taking a limited risk in order to gain. I should probably stop thinking about it so much and jump in. I am a loner by nature, both in RL and in game, and that can be costly in both places.

True story. I know someone who robbed his own real life brother in EvE. And I don't mean took a ship or something, robbed his corp blind. Just a bit of competitive "i beat you at a game" kind of thing. Not to scare you off from socializing - that's the best part of this game - but knowing people in real life does not preclude them from screwing with you in games. Let alone this one.

Joining a corp is good. But like everything else in EvE, do your homework.

-Do they have experienced players or just a pile of noobs with blind leading the blind?
-Do they actually do what they advertise? Corps that say they do everything often do nothing.
-Do they do what you want to do during your play time? They might only do what you're after while you are at work/asleep.
-Make sure you have a clear understanding of what they expect from you and what they offer in return.
-If you find you don't like what they do, or they don't let you do what you want, don't hesitate to leave and try something new.
-Do they have a history of friendly fire incidents on the killboards?
-Is it too easy to get in? If it is, it's also too easy to get in for someone looking to shoot friendlies in the future (ie: you)
-Take their advice with a grain of salt. They might be trying to scam you or just be bad at the game themselves. Google is your friend.
-Don't put any significant amount of assets at risk until you know what is what. Last thing you want to do is pack everything you own into a hauler and follow someone to wherever they're leading you. If they want you to move, travel light. You can get the bulk of your assets out there later by courier contracts if it does work out. If they offer to move your stuff for you, make sure it's a contract with collateral to cover the value.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
#82 - 2013-04-16 00:49:12 UTC
Rocketfeller wrote:
Oracle of Machina wrote:
...The most valuable commodity in this game is trust, not ISK. Don't trust anyone completely...


There are so many contradictions in EVE. I am trying to reconcile not trusting people with joining a corp. I don't know anyone in RL who plays EVE. Any corp I join will be total strangers, and I won't trust them, nor will I expect them to trust me. Now I guess this is another case of taking a limited risk in order to gain. I should probably stop thinking about it so much and jump in. I am a loner by nature, both in RL and in game, and that can be costly in both places.




You can play this game as a loner if you want it to, there are many who play this way. However, if you play solo the amount required for most everything will be higher. You will need to do a lot of research, get knowledgeable in the game faster and be extremely careful about what you do. Think quite a bit before you do anything really. There won't be anyone who will help you when things go wrong.

A good corp will make all these things much easier/quicker. You can ask questions and get advice from older players. If you lose a ship you can get a ship for free. You can do in-game activities with others which in turn makes it more productive. Trust is earned, not given.

Also, playing with others usually more fun.
Sharon Anne
Gorthaur Legion
Imperium Mordor
#83 - 2013-04-16 04:01:46 UTC
You need grit to play EVE. Its not a sprint, its a stroll in the park with an occasional run like hell.Blink
Robus Muvila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-04-16 04:22:33 UTC
Didn't read this thread,

didn't need to.

The fact that you are capable of introspection to ask a question like that in the first place already puts you above the majority of pubbies in this game.

Don't let the difficulty cliff get you and you'll go far.

TMC Senior Developer http://themittani.com - Because EvE has needed a proper news site for ages
dark heartt
#85 - 2013-04-16 04:42:22 UTC
OP I must confess... I came here for tears. But after reading your post I need to tell you to stick with it. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of responses have been the same as this, just after a quick look at page 1.

If more new players came to Eve with the mindset that you have, then we would keep more new players. You are not entitled. you don't come across as whiny. You research things yourself (such as finding Eve-Central). You don't blame others for mistakes that were made, and you seem to pick yourself up after each of them. You are now at that balance point I found myself in after about 4 months, where you say to yourself, "Can I really play this game?"

The answer to that question is YES! The fact that you wrote what you did shows that you are extremely capable of playing this game. We all made mistakes. If someone says to you I never made one mistake in while playing Eve, they either played for a week, got bored and left, or they are lying to you. In fact I made the same sort mistakes you did while missioning and mining to start with.

Stick with it bro. You'll be a fantastic addition to someone's corp, or hell you'd be a fantastic corp CEO one day. Good luck!

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
pussnheels
Viziam
#86 - 2013-04-16 05:13:08 UTC
[quote=Rocketfeller]I quote]

Welcome to EvE
First thing i want to say Rome wasn't build in a day a,nd neither is your EvE succes take your time to find your niche
only advice i can give donot try everything all at once , probably a mistake many new players do
like i said keep exploring all the facets of the game and eventually you find your niche

BTW EvE isn't really that hard there is just so much of it and you need to discover it yourself

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Harbonah
Short Bus Window Licker
#87 - 2013-04-16 06:18:12 UTC
Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not trying to kill you.......

Anyhow, if you look at Isk as a form of disposal entertainment, you'll never have to worry about how much other players steal from you.
Rain6639
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2013-04-16 06:21:55 UTC
OP we're all different

All I do is missions by myself, in high sec, and it's plenty entertaining. makes a lot of ISK, also, because I use my LP for LP store items to use among my ships or resell.

I have five accounts.

You're already participating in market far deeper than I ever have. The only market activity I've initiated is orders of tens of thousands of drones at a school station/1.0 security system because it was my base of operations and no one else was selling drones there (and buying drones from my own order cost nothing, was convenient, etc).

I did not make any ISK in the endeavor, and after the contract expired I donated 14,000 caldari light drones to the EVE Santa event organized by another player.

you're also posting on the forums after just three months? you're far ahead of where I was at 3 months.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2013-04-16 07:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Rocketfeller wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
...Google-ing: site:eveonline.com margin trading scam

For example, I found this: Margin Trading Scam - A Guide...


So if I had known to search for "margin trading scam," I would have found information about margin trading scams? How incredibly helpful! You're right - it isn't a secret after all.

No really, while I may not have been clear, I was saying those were the things I was thinking before I accepted it was my fault.

If you approach EVE with this mentality you will only learn through failure - which, I guess, is effective but expensive.

What I did during the first 2-3 months in EVE was that I read everything about EVE I could get my hands on. I didn't wait for something to happen to me and then started reading up on it, I didn't select based on what I thought would be my goals in this game, I just read every guide I could find starting with the stickies in each forum section.

A lot of the guides I read were outdated (I started playing shortly after the nano nerf) and I didn't fully understand many of them as I was lacking context/experience - but I just kept reading.

In my opinion this is the way a solo player should approach EVE if he wants minimal pain. If you are part of a corp things are fundamentally different (but I only joined a corp after I had 3.5m SP) and if you are fundamentally opposed to using OOG resources then you'll have to learn the hard way, but for the lone wolf the first weeks of playing EVE are mostly reading about EVE.

Of course you can't look up "margin trading scam" if you don't know that such a thing exists. But between reading GD, C&P and MD regularly you would almost certainly have stumbled about a description of this scam within any given week.

.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2013-04-16 07:52:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Other games are based around intelligence, dexterity, ... EVE is to a very large part about knowledge.

(you're also making your own life unnecessarily hard by radically changing careers every time you've learned a valuable lesson; continue what you are doing & apply the lessons learned and you will notice progress)

.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#91 - 2013-04-16 08:07:20 UTC
You did ask this question on the forums
Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#92 - 2013-04-16 08:10:44 UTC
yup...nuff said
Anva Dante
Bunch of Noobs Logistics
#93 - 2013-04-16 08:57:57 UTC
The Margin Trading "Exploit" (and it is an exploit as it's not identifiable using in game mechanics, but experience) should 100% be fixed.

All normal scams have one thing in common, they are playing with words and numbers and can easily be identified with paying attention. The margin trade scam revoles around the abuse of ingame mechnics on the market.

You aren't stupid, just unlucky by the sounds of it.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2013-04-16 09:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Anva Dante wrote:
The Margin Trading "Exploit" (and it is an exploit as it's not identifiable using in game mechanics, but experience) should 100% be fixed.

if there was a fix that wouldn't either kill the markets (remove the margin trading skill entirely) or open the door to much more serious exploits (allow negative wallets), it would probably have been fixed long ago.

as is I haven't heard a single sensible suggestion on how to resolve this issue.

(for illustration - when I did trading I usually had buy orders for 3-4x my wallet size and that was playing it safe on my part. if margin trading was removed the liquidity on the buy order side would diminish massively. Traders would exit the market in droves as the ability to leverage their capital via margin trading is often what allows them to turn a decent profit in the first place and bid/ask spreads would go way up.
Would you want to live in an EVE universe where you have to list every item on sell orders to get a somewhat decent price?)

.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-04-16 10:05:24 UTC
I hold to 2 similar words as having different meanings.

Ignorance equates to innocence - ignorance of the law... no excuse, etc... They just don't know.

Stupidity - that only comes with experience. They have the information, they know how to process it, they simply don't "connect the dots" for whatever reason.

Thus a new player makes ignorant choices and decisions - ignorant fits. It really takes a vet to come up with stupid fits and decisions.

The former can be easily addressed by adding information and teaching methods to process that information. The latter... There is rarely much you can do beyond snicker, frown or shrug.

You aren't a vet so no you aren't playing stupid but you are ignorant of a great many things. This can be addressed and you do show a bit more tenacity than some.

We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again - and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore. - Mark Twain

At least you aren't giving up due to poor experiences nor going overly conservative in your approach.

Another thing to look at is an old quote that's rather fitting for new players in EVE: The trouble with using experience as a guide is that the final exam often comes first and then the lesson.

Having nothing, with no inter-player connections, trying to face off with "vets" -- something needs to change and your "experience" in EVE is liable to continue being painful until things do change.

Make friends. Join a player group that is willing and able to help you learn the ropes but keep in mind that knowing something, as many do, is radically different than having actually tried variations and applying it differently.

I like these questions from TS Elliot's "The Rock":
Where is the life we have lost in living?
Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?

The information is there. The knowledge is there. How you choose to apply it will determine how well you will do, especially in certain areas.

Experience is the best teacher but experience based upon a firm foundation of understanding is better than the other options.

tl;dr: No you aren't stupid. You need to learn more about the game and the best way to learn isn't just by reading but by joining in with others who can and will help you learn - but also do keep that adventurous willingness to try things for yourself - as you learn.
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#96 - 2013-04-16 10:11:29 UTC
Don't just check it... DOUBLE check it ! Big smile
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-04-16 10:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
...... forums are ...... Evil

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2013-04-16 10:18:03 UTC
Welcome to Eve!

And yes, everyone makes mistakes. I'm here 3rd year and still doing like stupid n00b. Lol

I think you only need few fixes for your endeavors.
Rocketfeller wrote:

I started out well enough, running all the tutorial missions and getting the free ships. Then I stupidly lost my destroyer in a mission, sold my other ships to replace it, and then lost that one as well.

yes. you need to practice.
+ (and this is REAL PLUS) you need to join corp. Just one of 100001 carebear mission runners corp. Nothing special. But usually these corps gives good advices to new players about missions, mining and other non PvP_related activities. Maybe they will give you some ISK and material bonus. I remember my first corp where guys shown me lvl4's, gave some knowledge about PvE (don't mix guns, don't mix tanks, etc....) and gave access to corporation hangar for cheap loot. I used it to fit my ships for some time. This will give you good start.

Rocketfeller wrote:
Since I had to start over, I thought I'd give mining a try, as even though it is boring, it seemed safer. That went slowly, but I kept at it and managed to make a little ISK, and eventually worked my way into a retriever, which cost me everything I had. I was much more productive, but within a few days I was blown up by a ganker (in high sec), and lost the ship and my pod. All I had left was a few days worth of ore I had mined before losing the ship. I know, I know, don't fly what you can't afford to lose. But moving into a mining barge as quickly as possible seemed like an intelligent decision for a miner, except in hind sight.

well. nothing wrong here. Except that you should pay more attention to environment.
Anyway: you started mining from zero (after losing mission ships) so you could repeat start and be more careful. No need to switch to other activities.

Rocketfeller wrote:
I decided to try a more peaceful career as a trader. I scraped together all the money I could and started looking for items I could buy cheaper and sell higher. I found that I could pretty easily make a little profit of 5 or 10%, but soon ran out of capital and order slots. The stuff that I could afford to buy was not very expensive, so even a 10% return wasn't giving me as much as I had been making mining. I decided that was just a temporary problem, and that once I accumulated more capital I would be able to make bigger trades with my limited slots for more profit. So I kept working at it, and also started moving items between stations to take advantage of price differences. I discovered Eve Central, which let me find the best deals and the best markets. I thought I had figured out how to play, and was making a more decent amount of money. Within a month I had a wallet with over 400 million in it. And then I found a trade that beat all the trades before by turning my 400 million into 500 million - 25% in one trip. If you know how this part of the story is going to end, then congratulations to you, because I did not. It turns out the 500 million buy order was a fake. When I tried to sell, the order was immediately deleted. Only then did I find out there were no other buy orders for even 10 million. After doing a little research, I found out this is a common scam made possible by the fact that the market allows orders to remain visible even after the money put up to fill them is gone. I fully accept that the loss is on me, because I stupidly overpaid for the item. But it was an expensive way to learn that the EVE markets contain fake orders. I knew I had to watch out for other players, whether in ships or on the other side of trades and contracts. I just didn't know that the market mechanism couldn't be trusted, either.

And here you repeated mistake again: you didn't learn environment before actions.

But it's ok. As i stated before: you started trading from zero so you can repeat it again.
But here is one (however IMPORTANT) note: don't hesitate to work with people!!! In your example: you see "too good to be true" order and .... What now? It's simple! You ask in local! Shocked
Result: people will say you why you should evade this order. Can't speak about the whole Eve online but in Dodixie you always get helpful advice should you ask politely.

Rocketfeller wrote:
So I'm back to square one. Again. Because of repeatedly making expensive mistakes. Don't get me wrong - I am not crying about the losses. Well, I guess in a way I am, but I don't blame anyone for where I am except me, and I accept that newbies will make expensive mistakes. The question is whether this is an unusual level of stupidity, and whether I should try once more or am I likely to keep repeating my failures?

well i guess you are like me. I still can lose billions by mistake because i can't be bothered to do proper investigation. You can live with it just add some reasonable amount of lazyness. I mean: don't jump straight to river, give yourself some time to watch before action. Yes, you will lose some fast profits (and i lose many opportunities because of this) but you will evade many traps because either someone will get into this trap or someone will shed a light there.

And again: welcome to Eve. You made mistakes and you still here. So i guess you will win at the end.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Radamant Nemess
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
#99 - 2013-04-16 10:19:20 UTC
Three months is not enough for anything serious. Three years - now we`re talking. EVE is about time spent training skills, so patience is required. If you don`t have the nerves, save yourself and play something else. EVE is a masochists game.

i can fail at any speed you like
darmwand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-04-16 11:13:02 UTC
Rocketfeller wrote:
Oracle of Machina wrote:
...The most valuable commodity in this game is trust, not ISK. Don't trust anyone completely...


There are so many contradictions in EVE. I am trying to reconcile not trusting people with joining a corp. I don't know anyone in RL who plays EVE. Any corp I join will be total strangers, and I won't trust them, nor will I expect them to trust me. Now I guess this is another case of taking a limited risk in order to gain. I should probably stop thinking about it so much and jump in. I am a loner by nature, both in RL and in game, and that can be costly in both places.



As others said before, be careful if it's too easy to get in, do research (on the forums, google, killboards etc) and hang out in their public channel to get some idea about corp activity and mindset. If the corp has a blog or forums, read them. The same thing is true for individual corp members. It's a lot of work, I know, but the right choice of corp can lead to years of enjoying a truly amazing game so it's well worth it.

Or you could join one of the big established noob-friendly corps such as RvB (for PvP) or E-UNI to get started.

Anyway, good attitude, if ever you hang out in my corner of low-sec I'll be happy to hug your ship Pirate

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."