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[Odyssey] Navy Battlecruisers

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Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#321 - 2013-04-15 13:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Shpenat
seth Hendar wrote:
ok, so basically, the devs took our canes away, and now, they just tell us, "get it back, at *3 the price"?

i won't buy what was mine, at 3x it's price, give us our cane back.

or i want 3x month game time for the price of one (see, i can do the same too)


Did you actually check the stats of the navy cane? It is unlike the old cane. It has practically only same slot layout, bonuses and model. Most other statistics are quite different.

But I agree that the price is imho bit too high.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#322 - 2013-04-15 14:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Shpenat wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
ok, so basically, the devs took our canes away, and now, they just tell us, "get it back, at *3 the price"?

i won't buy what was mine, at 3x it's price, give us our cane back.

or i want 3x month game time for the price of one (see, i can do the same too)


Did you actually check the stats of the navy cane? It is unlike the old cane. It has practically only same slot layout, bonuses and model. Most other statistics are quite different.

But I agree that the price is imho bit too high.

yes i did, and i got the very same result with a bit more of EHP (it's so close it's not even relevant), BUT it remains slower, so said bit more EHP will not even compensate the damage mitigation.

if you add to that the TE nerf, it will even be weaker than the old one....at 3x the price (or more)

here is the result with ALL LVL5 and no implants for a shield cane (with the current TE, not the nerfed odyssey one):
http://s13.postimg.org/tiex4k9br/Hurricane_Fleet_issue_shield_425.png
Drunken Bum
#323 - 2013-04-15 14:56:00 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
I don't understand the dev team's logic for introducing Navy BC's.


Anytime players have put forward ideas or requests for them, it's always been met with: "Adding new ships for the sake of adding new ships is wrong, they need to have a defined role. We learnt from our mistakes with MoM's/Titans".

Which is where these new ships fall down, as I don't think they have that defined role which is allows for their inclusion.

Can someone at CCP please tell me what you think the role is that the Navy BC's are going to fill?

This, very much so. Why are these being put in the game at all? We don't need them. They're just stepping on the toes of other ships.

It feels to me like they're just throwing something at us to placate the masses.

"Here have some new ships to distract you from the terrible ideas we plan on implementing with tech 1 battleships"

These are a waste of resources imo. But thats just me, and I've never claimed to be intelligent.

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#324 - 2013-04-15 15:14:33 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Shpenat wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
ok, so basically, the devs took our canes away, and now, they just tell us, "get it back, at *3 the price"?

i won't buy what was mine, at 3x it's price, give us our cane back.

or i want 3x month game time for the price of one (see, i can do the same too)


Did you actually check the stats of the navy cane? It is unlike the old cane. It has practically only same slot layout, bonuses and model. Most other statistics are quite different.

But I agree that the price is imho bit too high.

yes i did, and i got the very same result with a bit more of EHP (it's so close it's not even relevant), BUT it remains slower, so said bit more EHP will not even compensate the damage mitigation.

if you add to that the TE nerf, it will even be weaker than the old one....at 3x the price (or more)

here is the result with ALL LVL5 and no implants for a shield cane (with the current TE, not the nerfed odyssey one):
http://s13.postimg.org/tiex4k9br/Hurricane_Fleet_issue_shield_425.png


bit of ehp? That is battleship class bit of ehp. Also other starts are battleship like. Lets compare:

Shield/Armor/Hull:

  • Cane old: 4297 / 4688 / 3516
  • Cane new: 4250 / 4500 / 3500
  • Fleet Cane: 6375 / 6750 / 5250
  • Typhoon old: 5469 / 6211 / 6211
  • Tempest old: 6211 / 6954 / 6641


The fleet cane is very much comparable to current battleships in base tank.

Sensor strength:

  • Cane old: 16 Ladar
  • Cane new: 16 Ladar
  • Fleet Cane: 20 Ladar
  • Typhoon old: 18 Ladar
  • Tempest old: 19 Ladar


Jamming resistivity highly increased.

Everything else is nearly same as with the old cane. There is no reduction in DPS. And TE nerf is not specific to Cane so it has nothing to do with this particular ship.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#325 - 2013-04-15 15:43:02 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Shpenat wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
ok, so basically, the devs took our canes away, and now, they just tell us, "get it back, at *3 the price"?

i won't buy what was mine, at 3x it's price, give us our cane back.

or i want 3x month game time for the price of one (see, i can do the same too)


Did you actually check the stats of the navy cane? It is unlike the old cane. It has practically only same slot layout, bonuses and model. Most other statistics are quite different.

But I agree that the price is imho bit too high.

yes i did, and i got the very same result with a bit more of EHP (it's so close it's not even relevant), BUT it remains slower, so said bit more EHP will not even compensate the damage mitigation.

if you add to that the TE nerf, it will even be weaker than the old one....at 3x the price (or more)

here is the result with ALL LVL5 and no implants for a shield cane (with the current TE, not the nerfed odyssey one):
http://s13.postimg.org/tiex4k9br/Hurricane_Fleet_issue_shield_425.png


bit of ehp? That is battleship class bit of ehp. Also other starts are battleship like. Lets compare:

Shield/Armor/Hull:

  • Cane old: 4297 / 4688 / 3516
  • Cane new: 4250 / 4500 / 3500
  • Fleet Cane: 6375 / 6750 / 5250
  • Typhoon old: 5469 / 6211 / 6211
  • Tempest old: 6211 / 6954 / 6641


The fleet cane is very much comparable to current battleships in base tank.

Sensor strength:

  • Cane old: 16 Ladar
  • Cane new: 16 Ladar
  • Fleet Cane: 20 Ladar
  • Typhoon old: 18 Ladar
  • Tempest old: 19 Ladar


Jamming resistivity highly increased.

Everything else is nearly same as with the old cane. There is no reduction in DPS. And TE nerf is not specific to Cane so it has nothing to do with this particular ship.

look more closely to the screen, the displayed EHP is specific to eve HQ, the eve HP is 61K (look closer at the screenshot, it is displayed just above the "tank ability", wich is nowhere close to ANY BS HP (mainly because of the rig size and slot layout)

a 2 LSE / 2 invuln HAM drake for instance is displayed at 100K EHP in eveHQ (which is translated as 76k EVE HP)

a fitted pest (shield ofc) is 105k ehp (82k EVE hp), not what you call "so close"

agreed on TE nerf, it will hurt all turret based ships, wich INCLUDE the cane, but for comparison purpose to the old cane, i kept the current one
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#326 - 2013-04-15 16:42:58 UTC
Time for some feedback on the feedback.


  • The Navy Battlecruiser prices are a bit too high and seem comparable with Command Ships.

    • Good point, I had CCP Fozzie come to my desk with puppy eyes asking for a price reduction as well. We'll probably decrease overall price by 20-25%.


  • The Drake Navy Issue fittings are a bit short, especially on the powergrid side.

    • We discussed increasing this a bit, not much though, as we are scared of the sheer potential of this ship. Let's start around 5% and see where it gets us.


  • The Hurricane Fleet Issue feels bland for the price tag and doesn't bring anything new to the table.

    • We thought bringing the old 'Cane versatility role was appropriate as a Navy hull - we are considering increasing its powergrid to 1350.


  • Why choosing the Brutix instead of the Myrmidon as a Navy hull?

    • Internal discussion resulted in favor of the Brutix since we felt it represented the Gallente combat doctrine more accurately with close range hybrids. A Myrmidon Navy Issue could also have been problematic to balance without overstepping on the Dominix, Vexor Navy Issue or even turret ships.


  • Why not giving 7 lows to the Harbinger Navy Issue instead of 5 med slots?

    • The first internal iteration of the Harbinger had 7 lows and a 10% Armor HP bonus instead of the Medium Energy Turret Tracking bonus. After some play testing we felt the role was too restricting - we opted for more flexibility by changing it to its current form.


  • Shield recharge is not mentioned on the initial post?

    • Forgot about that, will add it now. Shield recharge is 1800 seconds on all of these hulls.


  • May Warfare Links be fitted on those hulls?

    • Indeed they can, they have identical 99% reduction bonus to them, same as regular Battlecruisers.


  • Why are the Navy Battlecruisers not all improvements of the basic tech1 hullls?

    • Plain improving stats of the tech1 hulls doesn't necessarily offer a good balancing solution; it may overpower an already very popular ship, or not provide a good enough role for a Navy variation.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#327 - 2013-04-15 16:47:13 UTC
Price change makes these a lot more palatable now, though we really need to wait for these Command Ship changes to truly judge them.

I also agree that the hurricane needs the full power grid number to justify the cost in any way, though it is still considerably weaker than the other 3 in my opinion.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#328 - 2013-04-15 16:50:21 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for some feedback on the feedback.




Are these live on Singularity with the new patch?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#329 - 2013-04-15 16:55:31 UTC
CCP Ytterbium
What about the battleship tank what's going on here? why aren't battleships getting more tank than a navy battlecruiser?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Srahng Do
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#330 - 2013-04-15 17:08:14 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for some feedback on the feedback.


  • The Drake Navy Issue fittings are a bit short, especially on the powergrid side.

    • We discussed increasing this a bit, not much though, as we are scared of the sheer potential of this ship. Let's start around 5% and see where it gets us.


5% increase to PG or both?

Like a great predatory piano I sit, silent in the darkness until it is time to attack; then I strike in a cacophony of violence and ivory keys.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#331 - 2013-04-15 17:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Andendare
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for some feedback on the feedback.


  • Why choosing the Brutix instead of the Myrmidon as a Navy hull?

    • Internal discussion resulted in favor of the Brutix since we felt it represented the Gallente combat doctrine more accurately with close range hybrids. A Myrmidon Navy Issue could also have been problematic to balance without overstepping on the Dominix, Vexor Navy Issue or even turret ships.
I would personally rather see a Myrm Navy Issue hull over yet another Brutix-based one. Don't get me wrong: I LOVE my Brutixes (all varieties), and there is genuine concern on a Myrm NI stepping on the toes of the VNI.

But why not just bonus the VNI around using Hammerhead IIs, giving it 50 mb/s bandwidth and 12.5%/level damage and then make the Myrm the NI, with the drone MWD bonus and 125 mb/s? (Since we don't really have any ships "focused" toward 50 mb/s drones' usage. And a mixed 2-2-1 flight of 75 mb/s is troublesome for its own reasons.)

I really like that you guys have thought of a ship with bonuses to support Heavy drones use, and I like the idea of the VNI, too. I'm proposing the changes to give more room into the lineup, since I'm pretty sure a rebalanced Astarte is going to step on the Brutix NI's shoes in some way.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#332 - 2013-04-15 17:15:49 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for some feedback on the feedback.

  • The Drake Navy Issue fittings are a bit short, especially on the powergrid side.

    • We discussed increasing this a bit, not much though, as we are scared of the sheer potential of this ship. Let's start around 5% and see where it gets us.



    Knowing full well lots of testing is still to be done I think I speak for many when I ask; What about this boats sheer potential scares you guys exactly.
    Many of us see bonuses that don't impress.
    For example what would a regular drake's damage and tank be with a target painter v.s. a navy drake.
    Looking at it most of us see a drake with less dps and a range bonus, diminished versatility(except damage type), higher ammo consumption and more fragile.

    So without being a smart ass I am quite curious to know where you see the Navy Drake dominating, I just see the next size up caracal.
    Really curious to see what scenarios you guys have seen by now.
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #333 - 2013-04-15 17:24:47 UTC
    Marcus Walkuris wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Time for some feedback on the feedback.

  • The Drake Navy Issue fittings are a bit short, especially on the powergrid side.

    • We discussed increasing this a bit, not much though, as we are scared of the sheer potential of this ship. Let's start around 5% and see where it gets us.



    Knowing full well lots of testing is still to be done I think I speak for many when I ask; What about this boats sheer potential scares you guys exactly.
    Many of us see bonuses that don't impress.
    For example what would a regular drake's damage and tank be with a target painter v.s. a navy drake.
    Looking at it most of us see a drake with less dps and a range bonus, diminished versatility(except damage type), higher ammo consumption and more fragile.

    So without being a smart ass I am quite curious to know where you see the Navy Drake dominating, I just see the next size up caracal.
    Really curious to see what scenarios you guys have seen by now.

    There are successful tactics for Drake fleets out there that would fit this ship like a glove. They are wise to be cautious.

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
    Ranger 1
    Ranger Corp
    Vae. Victis.
    #334 - 2013-04-15 17:26:24 UTC
    Quote:
    The first internal iteration of the Harbinger had 7 lows and a 10% Armor HP bonus instead of the Medium Energy Turret Tracking bonus. After some play testing we felt the role was too restricting - we opted for more flexibility by changing it to its current form.


    I can see why you went the direction you did, but I have to say this option would have been very interesting as well. Smile

    View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
    Salpun
    Global Telstar Federation Offices
    Masters of Flying Objects
    #335 - 2013-04-15 17:32:27 UTC
    Salpun wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Time for some feedback on the feedback.




    Are these live on Singularity with the new patch?



    Devs say not for a while sadly

    If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

    See you around the universe.
    Marcus Walkuris
    Aww yeahhh
    #336 - 2013-04-15 17:34:50 UTC
    Ranger 1 wrote:
    [quote]
    There are successful tactics for Drake fleets out there that would fit this ship like a glove. They are wise to be cautious.



    Ohh yeh I hear that, that is basically my question.
    Which scenarios I mean throw something at me ^^.
    I just can't visualize it, yet.....
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle1
    #337 - 2013-04-15 17:38:30 UTC
    Maximus Andendare wrote:
    I would personally rather see a Myrm Navy Issue hull over yet another Brutix-based one.
    Just change the Eos (a drone ship) to the Myrm hull. Same effort involved, and makes more sense.
    Mordecai Heller
    Offstation Fund Administration
    #338 - 2013-04-15 18:25:03 UTC
    8 launchers? You're not gonna remove one like usual giving the model a noticeable bald patch? This is awesome.

    I jinxed it didn't I?
    Aliventi
    Rattini Tribe
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #339 - 2013-04-15 20:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Time for some feedback on the feedback.


    • The Navy Battlecruiser prices are a bit too high and seem comparable with Command Ships.

      • Good point, I had CCP Fozzie come to my desk with puppy eyes asking for a price reduction as well. We'll probably decrease overall price by 20-25%.


    • The Drake Navy Issue fittings are a bit short, especially on the powergrid side.

      • We discussed increasing this a bit, not much though, as we are scared of the sheer potential of this ship. Let's start around 5% and see where it gets us.

    +1 for price adjustment.

    All the PG we need is enough to fit 8 HAM, an LSE II preferably, a 10MN MWD, and 9-10 PG for the mods that use 1 PG each. You can then add in more for those that don't have AWU/shield Upgrades V or other fitting skills.

    The ideal PG amount is around ~1,100 post fitting skills. I agree with not adding too much. There really isn't a need for 2 LSE. This drake is going to be very powerful in the right hands.
    Nightfox BloodRaven
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #340 - 2013-04-15 21:00:04 UTC
    +1

    20-25% price adjustment is legit!

    1350pwg for cane

    I got what i wanted..

    Done