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Player morality in EVE online. Why did you leave it at the door?

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Xien Anh
Xezan Federation
#261 - 2011-10-31 21:24:35 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Xien Anh wrote:
I have a space ship with laser guns and I'm gonna shoot stuff with it. Ain't nothing gonna stop me except someone with bigger guns.



or a gang of people with similar sized and/or smaller guns... Twisted

or CONCORD.

Yeah, that! And warp disrupters and stuff. Frigg'n disrupters are totally the death of me.

Only a ginger can call a ginger a ginger!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#262 - 2011-10-31 21:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Karl Planck wrote:
I have answered these, but lets have another go at it, I've got some spare time I suppose.

Cearain wrote:


Just because something is allowed by the game rules doesn't mean its moral. Lets say CCP said that if you know someone is a certain race in real life then you *must* refer to them by a racial slur every time you see them in local. CCP would make this a rule so its "part of the game." Yet you know those people of whatever race are really hurt by this. Is it ok?

Why not?



You are arguing that the game in itself perpetuates an immoral activity, in this case is lying which, btw, is a stretch to be immoral in the first place. I said initially we could easily apply to this dog fighting. Its a sport. Its a game. Most consider it immoral.

Russian roulette is a game. Everyone agrees to the rules and know that they might die during the game. Again, many would say that this is game is immoral.

Lets throwing lying to people and blowing up internet spaceships into the same boat. At best what you can argue is intentional deception in an effort to acquire in game items that may or may not have out of game value (this tie is EXTREMELY tentative at best, so don't ride the "acquire items to pay for game time" argument into the sun). So, you are saying then that the act of deceit being allowed and supported in a game makes the game immoral. Well, since most board games rely on this as a strategic option, you are going to argue most games in existence. The very fact that they are so commonly played shows that those who are upset (really really upset) are misinterpreting the game or are simply bad sports.

The racial slur argument is completely out of context, because the game does not do this. If it did, it would be promoting a hate crime and probably would not survive the lawsuit. Have you ever played a *** game? Didn't think so. Stop applying these extreme examples to something that goes beyond the scope of the argument.


Cearain wrote:
Take a friend or family member that you would trust with all the things you listed. Take your best friend. And lets say you invited them to play eve. They constantly told you they would never take your stuff in eve that you could trust them. You had a corp together and kept both your stuff in the corp hangar lets say about 50 billion worth. Then one day you were out doing a mission with him/her and he/she ganks your ship. You go back and see that all your stuff in the corporate hangars are gone. He/she tells you he did this so that he/she wouldn't have to pay for the subscription anymore.

Now what would your reaction be?
A) as though they bluffed you in poker? "yeah nice one haha its part of the game"
or
B) would you perhaps not trust them quite so much anymore?



A) Lets take your direct example. Have I been bluffed by a friend in poker for over $100? Yes. Was I angry when it happened? Yes. Did I call him immoral for the play? Of course not.

Lets put this in EVE now. A friend just robbed me of 50bil. Would I be pissed. OH HELL YES. Would I show up at his place screaming bloody murder about what how evil I thought he was. Of course not. Would I trust him with my in game assets anymore. Of course not, I would have already begun plotting my vengeance (and it would be sweet).

Would I hit the bars with them? Check on how things are with his family? Shoot the sh*t from time to time? Talk about EVE? Of course I would, cause there has been some REAL F*CKING things we have gone through that extend BEYOND A GAME. You know...REALITY.

B) Trust them how? In game. LOL. No. I wouldn't loan them an ibis. Trust them to come over and house sit? Yes I would. They made a great play. Just because you have and adversary doesn't mean they can't be your friend. My dad has kicked my ass in chess for years, we get along great.


BTW I am still surprised you don't see the point of my earlier example. Why would you think you can't trust someone on game form their trespasses, but you wouldn't trust them out of game if you trusted them with all your assets in game? Unless you don't trust people at all. Or, you couldn't trust someone in a game without trusting them as a person, in which case make sure never play poker together.


Don't bother anymore. He's been answered directly, along with full explanations, already. He repeatedly, pointedly ignores those responses.

This is the classic tactic of the forum troll in his native environment.

Any further discussion only serves to feed his ego. He's not arguing to prove what he believes is a legitimate point, he's simply arguing to get a rise out of people.

Time to move along people.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2011-10-31 21:36:12 UTC
Very simple, this is a role playing game, even those who dont actively RP have still chosen a role for their character and in many cases they have chosen the role of pirate or criminal for their character. This is a game where you can be anything you want and a lot of players choose to be the bad guy (since in most other MMOs the "bad guys" are npcs and players cant play the bad guy)

The general lore for EVE portrays new eden with very seedy undertones and generally a very greed driven society, so it makes sense that with their newfound power many capsuleers would turn to less-than-legal activities for personal gain.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#264 - 2011-10-31 21:36:15 UTC
First thanks for the responses to the questions. We can finally move the conversation forward a bit.


Karl Planck wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Just because something is allowed by the game rules doesn't mean its moral. Lets say CCP said that if you know someone is a certain race in real life then you *must* refer to them by a racial slur every time you see them in local. CCP would make this a rule so its "part of the game." Yet you know those people of whatever race are really hurt by this. Is it ok?

Why not?


…Russian roulette is a game. Everyone agrees to the rules and know that they might die during the game. Again, many would say that this is game is immoral.

Lets throwing lying to people and blowing up internet spaceships into the same boat. At best what you can argue is intentional deception in an effort to acquire in game items that may or may not have out of game value (this tie is EXTREMELY tentative at best, so don't ride the "acquire items to pay for game time" argument into the sun). So, you are saying then that the act of deceit being allowed and supported in a game makes the game immoral. Well, since most board games rely on this as a strategic option, you are going to argue most games in existence. The very fact that they are so commonly played shows that those who are upset (really really upset) are misinterpreting the game or are simply bad sports.

The racial slur argument is completely out of context, because the game does not do this. If it did, it would be promoting a hate crime and probably would not survive the lawsuit. Have you ever played a *** game? Didn't think so. Stop applying these extreme examples to something that goes beyond the scope of the argument..


Lying to people for personal/selfish gain is generally immoral. That is my view. You can disagree. Now I will agree that certain games can be set up where you are supposed to say things that aren’t true. I would put this in the category of acting. If you are playing a character who says something you know is wrong then its not immoral. This would not be immoral so long as it was clear it was in the game. I agree that would just be part of the game. But much of the lying in eve isn't so clearly part of the game.

For example in the example below I don't think the best friend saying you can trust him with your eve assets was part of the game. He wasn't pretending to be "in character" when he said that. He was a real person telling you something about what he would really do *regarding* a game not in a game. That is where allot of the lying comes in eve. I think the line is blurred.

I do not think the link between in game assets and real money is extremely tentative at all. I can buy isk with real money. I would love to have a trillion isk so I didn't have to grind missions or do trading to pvp. If I have enough isk I can save real money by not paying subscriptions. There is not only a link with money but with personal (as opposed to in game character) gain.

Now you seem to agree that it’s not that case so long as ccp says its moral then its moral. I agree. There can be things that ccp may say is moral that really aren't moral. I would say that would includes lying to people for personal gain.

As far as your distinguishing my example due to it being illegal: it might be illegal it might not. I don't know how the first amendment would fit into that. But whether it’s legal or not is really beside the point of whether it’s immoral. Unless you disagree I will leave it at that.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#265 - 2011-10-31 21:38:07 UTC

Karl Planck wrote:

Cearain wrote:
Take a friend or family member that you would trust with all the things you listed. Take your best friend. And lets say you invited them to play eve. They constantly told you they would never take your stuff in eve that you could trust them. You had a corp together and kept both your stuff in the corp hangar lets say about 50 billion worth. Then one day you were out doing a mission with him/her and he/she ganks your ship. You go back and see that all your stuff in the corporate hangars are gone. He/she tells you he did this so that he/she wouldn't have to pay for the subscription anymore.

Now what would your reaction be?
A) as though they bluffed you in poker? "yeah nice one haha its part of the game"
or
B) would you perhaps not trust them quite so much anymore?



A) Lets take your direct example. Have I been bluffed by a friend in poker for over $100? Yes. Was I angry when it happened? Yes. Did I call him immoral for the play? Of course not.

Lets put this in EVE now. A friend just robbed me of 50bil. Would I be pissed. OH HELL YES. Would I show up at his place screaming bloody murder about what how evil I thought he was. Of course not. Would I trust him with my in game assets anymore. Of course not, I would have already begun plotting my vengeance (and it would be sweet).

Would I hit the bars with them? Check on how things are with his family? Shoot the sh*t from time to time? Talk about EVE? Of course I would, cause there has been some REAL F*CKING things we have gone through that extend BEYOND A GAME. You know...REALITY.

B) Trust them how? In game. LOL. No. I wouldn't loan them an ibis. Trust them to come over and house sit? Yes I would. They made a great play. Just because you have and adversary doesn't mean they can't be your friend. My dad has kicked my ass in chess for years, we get along great. .


If I had a friend that I trusted and he stole all the assets out of a corp we both had and agreed we would be trustworthy about I would not trust him as much. Because his saying that I could trust him was not part of the game. It was a statement about how he would treat me in the game.

For example let’s say he told me he would log in at 9 AM and we would fleet up. Yet he doesn’t do that. It’s not an “in game” promise. That’s not part of the game. Any more than his telling me he will show up for a basketball game at a certain time is part of the game of basketball.

Heres the other thing you say “he made a great play.” How do you figure that? I mean it seems to me that he just abused the fact that you guys are real life friends in order to get your in game assets. He told you, you could trust him, and lied about it. I don’t see what is so “great” about that?

I mean you both knew either of you could break your promises made and take the stuff. It’s not like you were “fooled.” You were just lied to. That’s all.

There is no real game play involved. The game of eve does not really contribute anything to help you detect he was lying. In fact all of the lying was likely done outside of the eve client.

Karl Planck wrote:

BTW I am still surprised you don't see the point of my earlier example. Why would you think you can't trust someone on game form their trespasses, but you wouldn't trust them out of game if you trusted them with all your assets in game? Unless you don't trust people at all. Or, you couldn't trust someone in a game without trusting them as a person, in which case make sure never play poker together.


I’m not sure I understand what you are asking here. The extent I trust someone will determine how valuable an item that I will trust them with. I have to trust someone pretty well before I will let them watch my children overnight. I would likely let someone borrow a book before I would let them borrow a $1000. But my assets in eve have a certain value for me. I’m not exactly sure how much but I would likely let someone borrow a book before I let them have access to all my assets in eve.

There is no difference to me with trusting someone with my game assets and trusting them with other things of value to me. If you had a trillion isk wouldn’t you value that at all?


Would you never trust anyone with it, other than as a carrot to rip them off? Like I said I would trust some people I know well. And it has nothing to do with eve it has to do with knowing them as people and if they say they will play this game a certain way I can trust them.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#266 - 2011-10-31 21:43:11 UTC
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
Very simple, this is a role playing game, even those who dont actively RP have still chosen a role for their character and in many cases they have chosen the role of pirate or criminal for their character. This is a game where you can be anything you want and a lot of players choose to be the bad guy (since in most other MMOs the "bad guys" are npcs and players cant play the bad guy)

The general lore for EVE portrays new eden with very seedy undertones and generally a very greed driven society, so it makes sense that with their newfound power many capsuleers would turn to less-than-legal activities for personal gain.


Sense has very little to do with this thread thus far. Big smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#267 - 2011-10-31 22:52:39 UTC
Huehuehue wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
There are no real consequences, so there is no real morality. Games are not real. Do not confuse player behaviour with real person behaviour.


But of course you cannot seperate the two. You do not suddenly turn into another person that has no affect on your real person when you log on. Like I said, I would never ever kill a miner or missioner UNLESS they are in enemy corporation I'm in war with and thus it's part of agreed combat. And how can you say there are no real consenquenses, each player devotes his time, which is the single most valuable asset any human has to this game, and you can bet the missioneer who lost his brand new cnr because you felt the kill mail would look nice does not feel good.



I've actually noticed what Huehuehue is talking about -- it's not 'because it's a game' that people have no moral compass (or rather, not just that), it's that the virtual environment has conditioned us to subconciously consider the other person as 'virtual' -- since it's a picture, and not a 'real' person, we psychologically feel that we don't have to apply the same level of morality as we do to a living, flesh-and-blood person.

Beaudrillard would have a field day with this.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#268 - 2011-10-31 23:37:35 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Riedle wrote:
Cearain wrote:


It depends if we are in game or out of game.


Why?

We are in the forums. Are you mad?
If so, does that make me a psycopath?


Because it just does.

Yes I'm fuming.

Yes making someone mad on an internet forum means you are a psychopath.


lol
look up the definition of egomaniac and then look in the mirror.

The world is not defined by your feelings. sorry. lol
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#269 - 2011-11-01 01:20:57 UTC
Cearain, I am not going to persue this any farther man.

I just want to say, in all seriousness, if this is how you feel about this game, you need to take a serious look into how you separate game play vs relationships in reality. There is a large difference between the two but the line is blurred way too much for you man.

Honestly not trolling. EVE might really not be the place for you. Poker, losing isn't that bad. Risk, you lose a couple hours. EVE you can lose years. That level of risk is why most of us feel so much excitement vs the other games. The amount of emotional investment you have in this game might be a detriment to your health if the chips fall in the wrong way.

I has all the eve inactivity
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#270 - 2011-11-01 01:23:17 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
I just want to say, in all seriousness, if this is how you feel about this game, you need to take a serious look into how you separate game play vs relationships in reality. There is a large difference between the two but the line is blurred way too much for you man.

CCP said "Eve is Real" and Cearain totally believed them.
Vyl Vit
#271 - 2011-11-01 01:51:49 UTC
Jackie Fisher wrote:
I used to play a lot of chess because I enjoyed moving my pieces around the board. I would tell this to other players and ask them not to beat me as I was happy with a draw.

After a while it occurred to me that Knights were overpowered, with their ability to jump over other pieces, so I decided to opt out of that part of the game and stop using them.

I must have been very unlucky as all my opponents were immoral and continued to use their Knights and they kept beating me. They were probably serial killers or bankers in their day jobs.


I looked up "specious argument" and found "see this post"...referring to yours of course, msr.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Vyl Vit
#272 - 2011-11-01 01:56:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Justin Credulent wrote:
The thing is, whether or not it's "part of the game" or "not against the rules"... the fact is your actions are still 100% your choice.

Players who try to hide behind lines like "nowhere in EVE is safe" or "the GMs allow it" or "it's just part of the game" are moral and intellectual cowards trying to pass off blame for their own actions (and guilt) onto an innocent third party.

Works both ways: anyone who hides behind “they're sociopaths", “I wasn't doing anything" or “it's illegal IRL" is a moral and intellectual coward trying to pass off blame for their own mistakes and poor choices (and accountability) onto a third party. They chose to play a full-PvP game, and then chose not to prepare for the eventuality of being engaged in PvP. That's their actions and 100% their choice - it just turned out to be a horribly bad choice and they're experiencing the consequences of that choice.

And the reason Ieave out “innocent" is because I do not live under the delusion that anyone in EVE is innocent, most certainly not the resource gatherers who make it all possible...


I looked up "circular argument" and was referred to THIS post. I love my dictionary.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Zions Child
Higashikata Industries
#273 - 2011-11-01 01:59:41 UTC
tl;dr

Why do people grief and kill in EVE: Because they can with no consequence, just like how no one is calling for a regulated market. Morals are unnecessary in a virtual environment. Certain morals are still present, like honesty, but other than that most are completely ignored. ISK flows like water and you can never permanently kill someone, so who gives a damn?
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#274 - 2011-11-01 02:00:16 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
I looked up "specious argument" and found "see this post"...referring to yours of course, msr.

Vyl Vit wrote:
I looked up "circular argument" and was referred to THIS post. I love my dictionary.


You should stick to reading the dictionary. You're not very good at this whole posting thing.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Vyl Vit
#275 - 2011-11-01 02:18:01 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Vyl Vit wrote:
I looked up "specious argument" and found "see this post"...referring to yours of course, msr.

Vyl Vit wrote:
I looked up "circular argument" and was referred to THIS post. I love my dictionary.


You should stick to reading the dictionary. You're not very good at this whole posting thing.


Coming from you, that's a compliment.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Fionaa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#276 - 2011-11-01 02:45:10 UTC
To the op

I haven´t read the whole responses, but dont you think thats what makes eve so special the thrill of never really be sure if your safe? If you are to mine in low/null you have to be ready to dodge bullets, and thats what makes it fun. What if all of a sudden we get pvp rooms and the world is just one big friendly teddybearhugging place. Will eve online still be any fun ?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#277 - 2011-11-01 02:56:00 UTC
Most games are based on deception in one form or another, this one especially so.

Whether it be a play to trick the defensive line in football, pass behind your back in basketball, a sacrificial move in checkers, a feint in chess, a verbal non-aggression agreement in Risk, a bluff in Poker, playing an evil bastard in any role playing game ever made, or playing a spy/infiltrator/ganker in EVE.

The advertising informs you of the nature of the game before you ever install it for the first time, and 5 minutes reading local tells you again. i don't think I even need to mention how clearly the games forums reinforce this idea.

If you don't agree with the concept of people portraying a bad guy in this game to provide amusement and to challenge the other players...
if you take the loss of virtual items (that you do not own in any way) personally...
if you cannot fathom that people lying, cheating, stealing, and killing in a fantasy game environment specifically created to be ultra dangerous is completely different from same behavior in reality...
...then there are very few RPG's you will enjoy. In fact, there are few competitive games of any type that you will be truly comfortable with.

You aren't going to change the nature of EVE simply because you don't understand it.
You aren't going to successfully talk down to other players because you have convinced yourself you have some sort of moral high ground.
You WILL receive a lot of very well deserved eye rolls and then be largely ignored.

Personally I'm delighted that there is a game out there that depicts a truly cut throat environment. Not because I usually play the bad guy myself in this game, but because it is far more challenging to play against real people completely cutting loose against me than any "evil NPC" ever will be.

If you can portray a "good guy" in EVE and still come out on top you have finally accomplished something difficult in your game playing experience. You should be thanking those that you are talking down to so smugly, because without them your experiences in this game would be greatly diminished.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#278 - 2011-11-01 03:00:17 UTC
Karl Planck wrote:
Cearain, I am not going to persue this any farther man.

I just want to say, in all seriousness, if this is how you feel about this game, you need to take a serious look into how you separate game play vs relationships in reality. There is a large difference between the two but the line is blurred way too much for you man.

Honestly not trolling. EVE might really not be the place for you. Poker, losing isn't that bad. Risk, you lose a couple hours. EVE you can lose years. That level of risk is why most of us feel so much excitement vs the other games. The amount of emotional investment you have in this game might be a detriment to your health if the chips fall in the wrong way.



Thanks for your concern. I'm not going fret over losing a few hundred dollars in game assets. If you knew what I did for a living you would laugh for even suggesting it.

If a friend tells me I can trust him, and he is lying about it and takes my stuff I will no longer trust him as much - "in game" or "out of game."

If my reaction on this sounds strange to you, I think you are the one who may want to give eve a break. Your drinking too much of the kool aid. People won't trust you if you tell them your views. If you think you can just say well I lied about something concerning a game so there is nothing wrong, your kidding yourself.

Seriously you may want to tell some of your coworkers that you pretend to make friends on teamspeak or vent with people in order to take their stuff. Tell them that way you don't have to pay a subscription fee or grind missions to pay for your pvp. They may *say* things like oh yeah thats interesting or even how cool that is. But I can tell you I would not be the only one who would think you are not trustworthy.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#279 - 2011-11-01 03:09:07 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
....


Ranger 1 why don't you answer some of the questions I asked?

Karl did and the discussion actually made *some* headway. He made some good and interesting points. You, however, seem incapable of moving past posting platitudes.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#280 - 2011-11-01 03:21:07 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
....


Ranger 1 why don't you answer some of the questions I asked?

Karl did and the discussion actually made *some* headway. He made some good and interesting points. You, however, seem incapable of moving past posting platitudes.


1: I have already answered your question directly. To repeat myself...

No, I would be at most slightly irritated if a friend in real life put one over on me and zapped my assets. Just as I would not take it overly seriously if he broke a non-aggression pact in RISK, or successfully bluffed me in Poker. It is the nature of the GAME, and has zero reflection on his behavior in reality.

You have pointedly ignored that response for the last several pages of this thread, even when it was directly pointed out that I had answered you. Which brings me to my second point...

2: You are a troll. As a general rule, once that becomes painfully apparent I don't humor them anymore.

I trust the people in this thread will forgive this one exception.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.