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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#41 - 2011-10-25 07:13:34 UTC
Narabi Kugisa wrote:
Baneken wrote:
In EVE from my experience there are also several sub-communities that exist, those are:

- Language channels
- Corp
- Alliance
- private chat channels

Each of those groups have a feel of their own and their own regulars that form a network and connections of friends and enemies alike.
Most interesting group from all of those is the language channel as anyone talking his native language in those channels automatically becomes part of a community and it's values, also arguments on language channel tend to go deeper and have more direct consequences.
You'd be surprised how many wardecs I've collected from language channel when speaking on my native language (Finnish) in this game.


That's really neat! Thank you!

When you speak Finnish, do you use the Eve terminology in English or is it translated to your native tongue?
More specifically, do terms (like wardec for example) stay in English or are they translated? This may seem...dense but I was just curious.

Wait, do you get wardecs simply for speaking Finnish instead of English?


No I got those by getting in to a heated arguments with my fellow Finns about various issues and some people (corp leaders) liked to teach a lesson by dropping you a wardec and I tell you they are very good at hunting you down.
And on occasion someone just had a bad day at the office. P

And no we don't usually translate terms because english terms are either very awkward when translated, too long and most of us are used to having english labels for everything anyway.
Lyric Lahnder
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2011-10-31 16:43:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyric Lahnder
TLDR: My E-Values are, I try to kill as many players and there pods in game as I can. Despite this I do not consider my self to be a griefer or a player who is only concerned with ruining other players good time. These are my reasons why:

Dont have a problem with care bears. I do some care bearing for finances. Care bears that hate pvp'rs might be getting there wires crossed on what 'kind' of pvper they hate.

Before I was a mercenary I did some pirating. Primarily just gate camping in low sec. We caught and killed anything that came through weather the character was younger then us same age or older. As a PVP'er I acknowledge the fact that when I melt some ones face off and pod them I am putting them at a disadvantage in game.

However I do not consider my self to be a "Griefer" in game, or a person who craves the opportunity to ruin some one else's good time.

I dont can flip or exploit game mechanics to pull people into fights they cant win.

When I have entered into fights in null sec and low sec I also take on risk. A single ship I may be able to obliterate. However, they could be bait for a gang that could easily counter the one which I am apart off either in tactics or in numbers. In that situation either I alone or we both loose our ships and pods.

When younger players reach the borders of safe space they are given ample warning by the game that the territory they are about to enter, if attacked, no help will come. If they disregard this an enter then they are actively choosing to take on the risk that I and my gang will be on the other side.

On top of this any number of players will tell them, if your not in a gang dont go into low or null sec alone. Thats two sources saying that risk is associated with this part of space. And to enter with out any knowledge of whats on the other side increases that risk even more. In low sec at least you can "pod scout yourself" into a system relatively safely.

I am a mercenary now that means I actually, or at least if I preform well enough(kill lots of people) Get paid to perform this activity. I still do not consider my self personally to be a "griefer" despite the fact that my whole job is to cause a target as much grief as I possibly can.

I do not goad people into fights by bashing them in local. My alliance doesn't participate in activities which exploit game mechanics.

I do not believe I am griefing a target because I am kept in the dark as to why the target is having us be contracted against them in the first place. In fact I am never told who has higher d us in the first place.

In other words the target alliance or corp may have earned our attention by wronging who ever has contracted us, and its not my place to question that reasoning, in that situation I am merely righting a wrong or an imbalance between two partys for pay. In this situation its a matter of: "dont kill the messenger."

If the point of the contract is to muscle some one out of a system unfairly, the target alliance or corp could have tried to use diplomacy to come to some kind of agreement with who ever has higher d me against them. If its a situation of bigger fish eating little fish, if its occurring in Null sec or low sec, Once again to set up some kind of operation or to live in this space is to take on the risk which is ever present there. I am apart of that risk. If the person feels its unfair unfortunately its like getting mad at high river water when you live in a flood plain...

If its big fish eating little fish in safe empire. There have been exploits that can be used to save yourself, and unfortunately for us merc's the GM staff has officially announced they will turn a blind eye to this and will treat it as a legitimate game play feature, so if your in empire you just need to look up this to keep yourself safe.

My final point is to grief some one you dont have to blow them up. You can scam people and manipulate markets to cheat people out of their hard earned isk, which can be far more detrimental then simply loosing a single ship or a clone since you have insurance and back up clones. This is also an activity I dont participate in.

These are my E-Values. Some people think its laughable in the sand box, but my response to this is its eve. Just as you have a right to ruin your prey in game until they rage quit in tears, I also have a right to play this way which I certainly dont think makes me any better then a griefer, its just the way I play because I think its more fun for me personally.

And on a side note I consider myself to be the nurturing type. On several occasions when newer players were destroyed needlessly I have actually sent isk there way to replace their ship usually with a message saying: "Be more careful next time." If any one had taken the time to convo me after a fight and I had seen that clearly their ship had fitting issues I would have gladly taken the time to explain how they lost their fight and what to do better next time as well as how to adjust their ship fitting currently(I dont have time for this activity now because Im more focused on my current in game job as a merc. As a pirate I had more time on my hands).

Noir. and Noir Academy are recruiting apply at www.noirmercs.com I Noir Academy: 60 days old must be able to fly at least one tech II frigate. I Noir. Recruits: 4:1 k/d ratio and can fly tech II cruisers.
Kaseido Quandrii
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2011-11-01 02:40:00 UTC
Narabi Kugisa wrote:
[quote=gfldex]


I'm sorry I didn't really think of the implications that the phrase would hold. I didn't mean to imply that Eve was any less real than other communities. I personally think it is just as valid. However, the realm that we live in and the realm of Eve suffer different physical constraints as we experience them and some might be inclined to say that Eve (or the internet for that matter) is less of a reality than the one in which we commonly live in and refer to... so I guess I was asking if anyone that played Eve felt those sentiments or if they felt that Eve is just as valid or even if Eve was a more pertinent reality to them than what we are commonly familiar with. Since I don't know any terms to define this physical difference between our own and Eve, I just pegged "real world" as the reality in which we are most familiar with.



Hey Narabi!

I'm another grad student, and new to EVE too. You've got an awesome dataset here - I'm blown away by how thoughtful, deep and well-informed the comments are.

I'm really glad you phrased that question the way you did, and got the pushback you did. IMO, a lot of older internet researchers (especially Ted Castronova, who somebody else mentioned) see online as some sort of parallel universe mostly disconnected from our own - but when you ask MMO players and folks in other online communities, you almost never hear that. Friends are friends, whether you talk in EVE chat, or IM, or on the phone, or over a pint. Stuff you do with friends is stuff, whether it's sitting around a table playing D&D or sitting in front of a screen playing EVE.

Actually hearing this is good, because it gives evidence to push back against a lot of the "received wisdom" in games/internet scholarship.

Good luck with your project, and if I can be of any help at all (I did my PhD second year project on a discourse analysis of a Second Life forum thread around a cross-cultural political topic), please ping me.
Narabi Kugisa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#44 - 2011-11-05 15:16:24 UTC
Mealtrom wrote:
You should be careful asking point blank questions about comparing the "reality" of Eve to RL. There is no faster way to put Eve players in a defensive crouch than to give them the impression you are writing another "MMO gaming as pathology" paper. Most of us are upwardly mobile 18-30 year old geeks who strongly associate that kind of language with the sensationalist backlash against RPGs we grew up with. The shut-in MMO fantasist is one of the most painful and enduring gamer stereotypes, and as you can tell invoking it can still make some people a touch hostile.

As for your questions I'll give you an anecdote. Its hard to give you helpful answers without knowing the thrust of your thesis, but I know you can't tell us that without poisoning the proverbial well.

Corporate cultures in Eve vary wildly in Eve and their language tends to reflect this. One of the best examples of this is Goonswarm. You seem to have at least a passing familiarity with them but I'll rehash the story again since its a good one. Goonswarm migrated to the game in 06 from a shock humor site called "Something Awful". Back then the game was much smaller and much more insular, and the goons (as they call themselves) had a hard time breaking into other alliances. They responded by leveraging their weight of numbers and aggressively marketing themselves to newbies, a demographic long thought useless for their lack of discipline and inability to use large ships. Goons were some of the first to do wide scale recruiting drives, even using propaganda posters, songs, and newbie friendly training operations. The resulting power bloc they created has had two enduring features. One is an irreverent, subversive MO. Goons love to mess with people and their mocking, self deprecating slogans reflect it ("Internet spaceships are serious business!", "We're awful at this game", "BAD POSTING", "Welp"). The second feature is a massive persecution complex. Goons started as underdogs and even when they controlled huge portions of the game map they continued to think along these lines. Fellow corp mates are "Goons" (and must at least be tolerated if not respected). Everybody else is "pubbies" (who you are virtually duty bound to harass and destroy). Their old reliance on human wave tactics, theft, and suicide operations have lived on too. Many of their operations and promotional materials borrow from resistance movements (the intentionally inflammatory "Jihadswarm" department for instance), even though they now have a respectable navy of their own. I think currently they're trying to destabilize the galactic economy by creating a fuel shortage and, to paraphrase Mittens, "lazily backstroking through a lake of tears."

Another thing you might find interesting is the shorthand. Eve rewards those who can communicate huge amounts of information efficiently, so intelligence channels have developed a dizzying shorthand. Its not uncommon to see things like "10 WN Lit NV" ("I've spotted ten White Noise pilots in the Litom system but I don't have visual confirmation of their ship types"). Like everything else every alliance has their own slightly different system, but a lot of it carries over.

Anyways I hope any of that is helpful, its late and I had to rewrite it so its a bit of a text wall. Hope you can tell us more about what you're doing as you go too. Who knows, if you stick around long enough and refine your thesis some of us might even kick in and start funding your research with game time codes. Now that my illegal drug business is doing well I can afford to be a patron of the humanities. Blink


Thank you for letting me know about how my question might/is offensive. I probably should have taken the time and just explained what I was specifically looking for...
Originally I wanted to see if there was "filtering" between the "home base" discourse community (RL) and the "secondary" discourse (Eve) Filtering is where knowledge, beliefs (maybe), and language are used from one discourse community to another. However, I realized (only after I posted the question) that it would be way too hard for me to try to document that. But now I'm looking into filtering of other MMOs with Eve and the Internet. The Internet part might not happen since it's so broad.

Thanks for the info on shorthand! I'm actually going to cover that in my paper :)
And thanks for the Goonswarm history. I've heard the story a few times but I always like hearing it again because each time it's told to me, it's really different. Even though all the facts of the event is there, there's just different aspects that are covered.

Sorry it took me so long to respond! I've been pretty busy and unfortunately the forum had to suffer the brunt of it.

And my paper is definitely not awesome enough to be funded LOL It's not worth any funding
Narabi Kugisa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#45 - 2011-11-05 15:34:46 UTC
Kaseido Quandrii wrote:
[
Hey Narabi!

I'm another grad student, and new to EVE too. You've got an awesome dataset here - I'm blown away by how thoughtful, deep and well-informed the comments are.

I'm really glad you phrased that question the way you did, and got the pushback you did. IMO, a lot of older internet researchers (especially Ted Castronova, who somebody else mentioned) see online as some sort of parallel universe mostly disconnected from our own - but when you ask MMO players and folks in other online communities, you almost never hear that. Friends are friends, whether you talk in EVE chat, or IM, or on the phone, or over a pint. Stuff you do with friends is stuff, whether it's sitting around a table playing D&D or sitting in front of a screen playing EVE.

Actually hearing this is good, because it gives evidence to push back against a lot of the "received wisdom" in games/internet scholarship.

Good luck with your project, and if I can be of any help at all (I did my PhD second year project on a discourse analysis of a Second Life forum thread around a cross-cultural political topic), please ping me.



Yeah I'm glad there was a real push back as well. It helped solidify some of my thoughts and reshape others :)
I also kind of felt like some people who had done some prior research on games (I haven't read a whole lot) sometimes blew up the possibilities of how games could change the human psychology or something. I can't help but feel like they got too enamored by that possibility and then...their paper resulted. Sometimes I get that way about writing a paper so I have to make myself step back and ask myself whether what I want to research is really happening or not. You can generally tell if you're having to pull teeth for the information that you want lol. But I'm just a little undergrad so that's all I've learned from researching so far haha

Thanks for the offer too!
Narabi Kugisa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-11-05 15:40:08 UTC
Baneken wrote:


No I got those by getting in to a heated arguments with my fellow Finns about various issues and some people (corp leaders) liked to teach a lesson by dropping you a wardec and I tell you they are very good at hunting you down.
And on occasion someone just had a bad day at the office. P

And no we don't usually translate terms because english terms are either very awkward when translated, too long and most of us are used to having english labels for everything anyway.


Well that's a little better than just getting wardecs for speaking Finnish lol
I've never gotten a wardec but it sounds like a terrifying experience...being hunted down haha

Thanks for the information! I appreciate it!
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