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The Importance of Patience and Shutting Up

Author
Hadrian Tivianne
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-04-14 19:33:17 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
This is seriously little more than a debate to you, isnt it? Were you captain of the logic club in university or something?

Ad hom?

Wow. You really do not get it, do you?

Is this not a discussion?

Why is it so wrong that someone asks the question I am asking? I was not the first person to start discussing this topic, nor was I the first person that started attacking others opinions, as can be seen from the first page.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#22 - 2013-04-14 19:37:20 UTC
This has been a pointless game of oneupmanship between people who are supposedly allies.

Between rattling of swords about demands here and there, fleets meeting with fleets and pointless arguing over semantics and political appeasement, everyone has forgotten the core issue. A woman was shot, one of many victims, and her condition was extremely fragile. That has been improved to a state where she is now able to be returned to her family for further treatment.

She's more fortunate than many other victims of that day.


And in all this time there has been barely any gratitude to the medical team who made this possible, if they weren't being criticised for not allowing other Doctors to assist to tick boxes on the "political points" scorecard. People are now stating their lack of comfort in her being moved, after recently demanding the complete opposite.

What should be a situation for allies to come together and bond over has resulted in nothing more than pointless bickering, hypocrisy and no bloody gratitude to those who have worked hard to save a life that means so much to so many.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Hadrian Tivianne
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-04-14 19:40:53 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

And in all this time there has been barely any gratitude to the medical team who made this possible, if they weren't being criticised for not allowing other Doctors to assist to tick boxes on the "political points" scorecard. People are now stating their lack of comfort in her being moved, after recently demanding the complete opposite.

I'm far from innocent in the arguing, but thank you.

This right here is the core of what is bothering numerous people.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#24 - 2013-04-14 20:08:57 UTC
Hadrian Tivianne wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

And in all this time there has been barely any gratitude to the medical team who made this possible, if they weren't being criticised for not allowing other Doctors to assist to tick boxes on the "political points" scorecard. People are now stating their lack of comfort in her being moved, after recently demanding the complete opposite.

I'm far from innocent in the arguing, but thank you.

This right here is the core of what is bothering numerous people.


Sometimes one needs to recognize that because one can ask a question does not mean that one should. Emotions are running high among our friends because they have suffered a terrible loss, as have many families in the Federation. It may be hard for some of us to reconcile an understanding of her deep cultural importance to her tribe with the egalitarian values we tend to hold.

We have treated her as we would any Citizen of the Federation, and see this as a virtue in ourselves. For her tribal brothers and sisters, however, she is their Chief and a Ray of Matar. Her status is more than rational, logical debate and discourse can easily explain. This is why your questions are not being evaluated the way you want them to be. This is the point Ava is trying to drive home.

Theirs has been a deeply emotional reaction. We should not be trying to claim some kind of rational high ground.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2013-04-14 20:15:34 UTC
Wise words, captain Vero.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Hadrian Tivianne
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-04-14 20:20:10 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Hadrian Tivianne wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

And in all this time there has been barely any gratitude to the medical team who made this possible, if they weren't being criticised for not allowing other Doctors to assist to tick boxes on the "political points" scorecard. People are now stating their lack of comfort in her being moved, after recently demanding the complete opposite.

I'm far from innocent in the arguing, but thank you.

This right here is the core of what is bothering numerous people.


Sometimes one needs to recognize that because one can ask a question does not mean that one should. Emotions are running high among our friends because they have suffered a terrible loss, as have many families in the Federation. It may be hard for some of us to reconcile an understanding of her deep cultural importance to her tribe with the egalitarian values we tend to hold.

We have treated her as we would any Citizen of the Federation, and see this as a virtue in ourselves. For her tribal brothers and sisters, however, she is their Chief and a Ray of Matar. Her status is more than rational, logical debate and discourse can easily explain. This is why your questions are not being evaluated the way you want them to be. This is the point Ava is trying to drive home.

Theirs has been a deeply emotional reaction. We should not be trying to claim some kind of rational high ground.

This is an acceptable response, so thank you.

I'll accept that I did go too far with seeking the answer to my question and readily apologize. I won't agree that always sitting back and allowing something to be bashed simply because emotions are running high is always the best option, though. A recent incident shows exactly what happens when emotions run high and there is no attempt at discussing a solution.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#27 - 2013-04-14 20:46:41 UTC
Sarcasm is the use of irony to mock or belittle.

If you goal is to have a useful discussion with people who are already on edge, it's a counterproductive rhetorical device.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#28 - 2013-04-14 20:55:11 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Theirs has been a deeply emotional reaction. We should not be trying to claim some kind of rational high ground.


Of course you should. The "deeply emotional" Sebiestor have behaved exactly like the screaming little brats they insist they are not. Contrary to the reputation of their species, they are too stupid to understand their own hypocrisy. But by bending over backwards to apologize for the thick-witted little beasts, you perpetuate their pathology.

Think of it as "tough love" if you like.
Hadrian Tivianne
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-04-14 20:57:08 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Sarcasm is the use of irony to mock or belittle.

If you goal is to have a useful discussion with people who are already on edge, it's a counterproductive rhetorical device.

It is also a very common tool of debate, depending on the context in which it is used.

But I've conceded that certain points were pressed too hard.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#30 - 2013-04-14 21:40:58 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
And in all this time there has been barely any gratitude to the medical team who made this possible, if they weren't being criticised for not allowing other Doctors to assist to tick boxes on the "political points" scorecard. People are now stating their lack of comfort in her being moved, after recently demanding the complete opposite.


When have I demanded she be moved?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

BloodBird
The Crucible.
#31 - 2013-04-14 21:52:28 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Hadrian Tivianne wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:


Is it just maybe possible she is being relocated because of the outcry? Couldn't be...


Very likely. And now it won't be the Federation's responsibility if she dies because of the move.

I suppose if it's acceptable to nag on someone for making a claim at being right, it's also acceptable to discuss how wonderful it is that the Republic was kind enough to thank the Federation for the transfer, for waiting to do it until she was stabilized, and for her care in general?


Oh. Double checking, that's not actually in the Republic's statement. Ah well.


Thank you for allowing incompetent security to guard my chief, which resulted in her assassination attempt and the deaths of dozens of people.

Thank you for years of treating me and mine like we are children.

Thank you for your arrogant, pompous attitude towards every situation and absolute refusal to accept responsibility for anything.

Thank you for attempting to force your ways, from your views that tattoos are "barbaric" to attempting to force your government on us, under the guise of "assistance".

And thank you for continuing to fight a deadly, bloody war against the Caldari, which recently culminated in an event so horrid that it resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of people.

From the bottom of my heart,

THANKS.


Thank you so much for starting this war in the first place, by disabling CONCORD and allowing a spiteful, racist madman to invade us and get millions killed.

Thank you so very, very much.

Starfire, we can do this all day. Kindly calm down and, if Seriphyn's attitude bothers you so much, try to ignore him.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#32 - 2013-04-14 22:08:51 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:


Of course you should. The "deeply emotional" Sebiestor have behaved exactly like the screaming little brats they insist they are not. Contrary to the reputation of their species, they are too stupid to understand their own hypocrisy. But by bending over backwards to apologize for the thick-witted little beasts, you perpetuate their pathology.

Think of it as "tough love" if you like.


And that kind of attitude is why I consider the Sebiestor to be my brothers and sisters in arms, and not the Amarr.
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#33 - 2013-04-14 22:54:54 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Gosakumori Noh wrote:


Think of it as "tough love" if you like.


And that kind of attitude is why I consider the Sebiestor to be my brothers and sisters in arms, and not the Amarr.


That's rather the point. The Federation acted appropriately, your "brothers and sisters" acted like self-entitled punks, and unless your brand of parenting maintains that ignoring a brat who acts out corrects the behavior, you aren't doing your high-maintenance playmates any favors.

I note with great satisfaction that fewer of the usual suspects came leaping to the Sebiestor defense this time. Next time, it will be fewer yet.

Aidari Flamesight
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-04-14 23:15:02 UTC
Maybe they sent her back to her home where she belongs because the Federation knows we mean business.

"Do not count days, do not count miles, count only the number of slaves you freed."

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#35 - 2013-04-14 23:24:42 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
She's more fortunate than many other victims of that day.


I don't recall, did the Republic demand the return of all Matari victims, or just her?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#36 - 2013-04-14 23:48:03 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
And in all this time there has been barely any gratitude to the medical team who made this possible, if they weren't being criticised for not allowing other Doctors to assist to tick boxes on the "political points" scorecard. People are now stating their lack of comfort in her being moved, after recently demanding the complete opposite.


When have I demanded she be moved?


You haven't, you aren't the only person commenting since however.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-04-15 04:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolas Merovech
Oh dear.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-04-15 04:21:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolas Merovech
Ava Starfire wrote:


Thank you for allowing incompetent security to guard my chief, which resulted in her assassination attempt and the deaths of dozens of people.

Thank you for years of treating me and mine like we are children.

Thank you for your arrogant, pompous attitude towards every situation and absolute refusal to accept responsibility for anything.

Thank you for attempting to force your ways, from your views that tattoos are "barbaric" to attempting to force your government on us, under the guise of "assistance".

And thank you for continuing to fight a deadly, bloody war against the Caldari, which recently culminated in an event so horrid that it resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of people.

From the bottom of my heart,

THANKS.


Seida Surionen, you forget yourself. Yes, racism is alive everywhere in the Empires; especially the Federation. However, that isn't to say that it is its policy. I grew up amongst the Vherokior on Matar, during the Ammarian occupation I might add, and I have nothing but respect for the whole of the Matari people. However, the Federation is my fatherland and I have come to hold it's core principles very dear to my heart.

There are many in the Federation who feel as I do, but sometimes their fervor for doing what they perceive as right comes off as callous. At best, they lend a hand whether it is wanted or not. At worst they are indifferent; blind to the whole galaxy because their faces are planted firmly within the vice of decadence. This is an attitude that, as an educator, I am working to change.

As a man who has lived, fought and instructed for over two centuries, I offer you some advice. Instead of harshly condemning your ally for doing what it believes is best, educate him; show him the error of his ways as befits somone of your station. If he does not listen, be patient. And please keep in mind that your friendship and that of your people are too valuable for the Federation to do without.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

BloodBird
The Crucible.
#39 - 2013-04-15 04:43:33 UTC
Aidari Flamesight wrote:
Maybe they sent her back to her home where she belongs because the Federation knows we mean business.


Chest-beating. Cute.

Maybe, pilot, she was sent home because she stabilized enough to do so and it was the intention from the very start?

The game of "maybe" and "perhaps" can be played by everyone here, and some do seem to enjoy it more than others.

Why don't we agree to can the ego-contest and stop doing this, while waiting for any facts to be made public on the topic instead?
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#40 - 2013-04-15 05:07:21 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:


I note with great satisfaction that fewer of the usual suspects came leaping to the Sebiestor defense this time. Next time, it will be fewer yet.



Just checking in to let you know your loony conspiracy theory is still insane, and that as a non-Sebiestor Minmatar I still do not feel oppressed by the Sebiestor. I read your posts insisting that the other Tribes should turn on the Sebiestor and simply shake my head; many other Minmatar pilots I've spoken to do the same. The only reason less and less people are calling you out is because it's a futile waste of breath since you seem so convinced...

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever

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