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Fix MWD + Cloak nonsense. We want pvp.
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Rune Scorpio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-04-14 18:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Rune Scorpio
All I see anymore is every damn ship running around doing the mwd cloak exploit to wander around lowsec with no chance of being caught. Makes this game insanely boring when I try and catch people at gates and they just warp off with no chance of me locking them. Logged in for the first time today in a while and saw a occator coming my way unscouted. Grabbed a sebo phobos and went and waited for him. No chance to lock at all, just warped off. Been dealing with ishtars and haulers over the last few months that did this and made hunting them tedious and pointless.

How about a nice simple fix. If there are modules active, cloaks don't activate. Or activating modules disable cloaks. Either or it solves the exploit. This is likely not so bad in null since you can deploy a bubble, but in lowsec theres no way of catching them without a large camp. Even then its luck. If they appear outside of 8k from someone they aren't getting caught since all you can use on a gate in low is cruisers and up.

If you are foolish enough to wander around unscouted, or get caught in a trap by a patient pvper they should have to rely on standard escape strategies not use a 2 module combination that makes ships behave like covert ops ships.

When the talk from CCP says they want to create more opportunities for pvp, MWD cloak tricks still existing blatantly contradicts that stance.
Rune Scorpio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-04-14 18:31:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rune Scorpio
.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#3 - 2013-04-14 18:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
When the talk from CCP says they want to create more opportunities for pvp, MWD cloak tricks still existing blatantly contradicts that stance.


Creating more opportunities for PVP is not the same as easy, counterless kills. The MWD + cloak trick allows people, if they specifically fit their ships, a chance to get past unorganized gatecamps (a properly-organized one won't need more than 10s to decloak and point someone).

An alt should not be necessary just to move around lowsec. Every opportunity for ganks needs counters, and fitting for travel (ie cloak + MWD) is the primary counter for gatecamping.
IceDe4d
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-04-14 18:51:59 UTC
it is still buggy because you can use mwd after you have cloaked for one cycle.
the mechanic is very old and it was in patch notes before but they never fixxed it.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#5 - 2013-04-14 18:59:18 UTC
You're asking for fish in a barrel, not pvp.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Rune Scorpio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-04-14 19:04:54 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
When the talk from CCP says they want to create more opportunities for pvp, MWD cloak tricks still existing blatantly contradicts that stance.


Creating more opportunities for PVP is not the same as easy, counterless kills. The MWD + cloak trick allows people, if they specifically fit their ships, a chance to get past unorganized gatecamps (a properly-organized one won't need more than 10s to decloak and point someone).

An alt should not be necessary just to move around lowsec. Every opportunity for ganks needs counters, and fitting for travel (ie cloak + MWD) is the primary counter for gatecamping.


There should not be a way to perfectly counter gatecamps in anything short of a covert ops or blockade runner. Gatecamps are countered with other fleets. There are other ways to survive a camp of only 1-4 people, like burning back to gate or ecm bursts to name a few. This is quite literally unstoppable for people like me that prefer solo/small gang fights.
Yes it is the primary counter used for travelling in lowsec. It should not be as foolproof as it is.
Where is the counter to people attempting to dodge pvp with this. By that logic there would be a decloak radius module, but there isn't. For stabbed ships we have faction points or hictors.
Rune Scorpio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-04-14 19:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rune Scorpio
Drake Doe wrote:
You're asking for fish in a barrel, not pvp.


PVP = Player vs Player
Killing indy ships is still PVP. If people can't learn how to survive and be cautious with their indy ships then that is their fault.
And yes, even though it is off topic a bit. I find popping indies and PVE ships fun and rewarding. I get the loot, they go home in a pod or less.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#8 - 2013-04-14 19:41:31 UTC
Quote:
it is still buggy because you can use mwd after you have cloaked for one cycle.
the mechanic is very old and it was in patch notes before but they never fixxed it.


They actually broke it in one patch, then apologized, clarified that the break was not intentional, and hotfixed it the next day.

Quote:
There should not be a way to perfectly counter gatecamps in anything short of a covert ops or blockade runner. Gatecamps are countered with other fleets. There are other ways to survive a camp of only 1-4 people, like burning back to gate or ecm bursts to name a few. This is quite literally unstoppable for people like me that prefer solo/small gang fights.
Yes it is the primary counter used for travelling in lowsec. It should not be as foolproof as it is.
Where is the counter to people attempting to dodge pvp with this. By that logic there would be a decloak radius module, but there isn't. For stabbed ships we have faction points or hictors.


Given that gatecamps cannot be foreseen by a single player before you're into them, I think it's perfectly reasonable that a person who anticipates them (read: fits for travel) should be able to evade them much of the time.

It is not foolproof. You can have a fast tackler with drones assigned for decloaking. You have more than 10 seconds for this fast ship to decloak and point the target before his MWD + cloak will save him. That's why I said "organized gatecamp"


Quote:
PVP = Player vs Player
Killing indy ships is still PVP. If people can't learn how to survive and be cautious with their indy ships then that is their fault.
And yes, even though it is off topic a bit. I find popping indies and PVE ships fun and rewarding. I get the loot, they go home in a pod or less.

And them successfully evading you is also PVP, it just means they won.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-04-14 19:49:33 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:

And them successfully evading you is also PVP, it just means they won.


Excellent counter point, but I doubt it will do a damn bit of good--i.e. it will be completely ignored or scoffed at and then ignored.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Rune Scorpio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-04-14 19:59:57 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:

It is not foolproof. You can have a fast tackler with drones assigned for decloaking. You have more than 10 seconds for this fast ship to decloak and point the target before his MWD + cloak will save him. That's why I said "organized gatecamp"

And them successfully evading you is also PVP, it just means they won.


This is what I am talking about. Without a large camp using frigates specifically to decloak there is no way to counter "ships ready to travel" without getting lucky and having the ship spawn close to one of yours. Like I said earlier outside 8k in lowsec even with a cruiser and you will not decloak the guy. The acceleration curve of the decloak ship and time between the cloakers appearance make 10 seconds too short.

Ships that aren't covert ships should not have the option of performing like this. Drones assigned for decloaking assumes he stays cloaked and tries to hide btw. They do nothing for people doing a mwd cloak trick.
Vuxil
The Carrion Crows
#11 - 2013-04-14 20:00:46 UTC
This idea won't do anything to fix pvp, it will just let you gank people who jump into your gate camp more easily
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#12 - 2013-04-14 20:03:36 UTC
Rune Scorpio wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
You're asking for fish in a barrel, not pvp.


PVP = Player vs Player
Killing indy ships is still PVP. If people can't learn how to survive and be cautious with their indy ships then that is their fault.
And yes, even though it is off topic a bit. I find popping indies and PVE ships fun and rewarding. I get the loot, they go home in a pod or less.

Thar means that the cloak/mwd is what they've used to adapt to people like you gate camping, which would meam you have to adapt by increasing you sensor strenght

HTFU and stop whining

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2013-04-14 20:09:00 UTC
Maybe you should jump into HS and pop a few miners.. they can't cloak while they mine Blink
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#14 - 2013-04-14 20:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
This is what I am talking about. Without a large camp using frigates specifically to decloak there is no way to counter "ships ready to travel" without getting lucky and having the ship spawn close to one of yours. Like I said earlier outside 8k in lowsec even with a cruiser and you will not decloak the guy. The acceleration curve of the decloak ship and time between the cloakers appearance make 10 seconds too short.

to do it reliably you need a frigate, but you could do it often in a cruiser depending on how far away they decloaked, which means that you could conceptually do this solo. If you wanted to do it with a frigate for the added chance of causing a decloak, you'd only need two people.

Quote:

Ships that aren't covert ships should not have the option of performing like this. Drones assigned for decloaking assumes he stays cloaked and tries to hide btw. They do nothing for people doing a mwd cloak trick.


Why not? Drones decloak cloak + MWDers as well as they do covert ops.

I don't know why you think that ships should be completely powerless against gatecamps. Ganks that you are completely powerless to stop or prevent are bad game design. Ganks that you ~can~ prevent with the correct planning and forethought (in this case: If you're smart enough to remember to travel fit your ship) are good game design.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2013-04-14 20:26:07 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:


I don't know why you think that ships should be completely powerless against gatecamps. Ganks that you are completely powerless to stop or prevent are bad game design. Ganks that you ~may be able to~ prevent with the correct planning and forethought (in this case: If you're smart enough to remember to travel fit your ship) are good game design.


Just changed "can" to "may be able to" to prevent people from misunderstanding this and prolonging this abortion of a thread. Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#16 - 2013-04-14 20:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Just changed "can" to "may be able to" to prevent people from misunderstanding this and prolonging this abortion of a thread.


Strictly speaking you can avoid almost every gank if you are careful to the point of absurdity and impracticality. What if i refuse to enter a system if there have been any kills in the last hour, or if the nearby systems are too violent, and I only use a nano'd covert ops frigate? I would be pretty damn invincible in lowsec.

The cloak + MWD trick is reasonably practical and can get you past most camps, but not all of them, particularly if the camp is well-organized.
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-04-14 20:31:10 UTC
This is not en exploit, its a valid game mechanic that have been around longer than you have been playing. Roll
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-04-14 20:42:11 UTC
Rune Scorpio wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:

It is not foolproof. You can have a fast tackler with drones assigned for decloaking. You have more than 10 seconds for this fast ship to decloak and point the target before his MWD + cloak will save him. That's why I said "organized gatecamp"

And them successfully evading you is also PVP, it just means they won.


This is what I am talking about.

So the truth behind this thread comes out, you want easy wins.
Try a Roam, no need to worry about the cloak + MWD trick there.
Just for added fun, a while back I was screwing around with a Black Ops ship and used the cloak + MWD trick and found my sin traveling around 1km/s for a bit.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Rune Scorpio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-04-14 21:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rune Scorpio
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

So the truth behind this thread comes out, you want easy wins.
Try a Roam, no need to worry about the cloak + MWD trick there.
Just for added fun, a while back I was screwing around with a Black Ops ship and used the cloak + MWD trick and found my sin traveling around 1km/s for a bit.


And you are talking about a cov ops ship fyi. They are actually designed to work like that.
I want to be able to shoot people that wander around lowsec. Having a cloak means they can wander around with impunity. I do roam. Roaming also gets old fast. since people just run past with the same bs trick now and again. Why should there be a game mechanic that allows any ship to avoid pvp?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-04-14 21:09:21 UTC
Rune Scorpio wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

So the truth behind this thread comes out, you want easy wins.
Try a Roam, no need to worry about the cloak + MWD trick there.
Just for added fun, a while back I was screwing around with a Black Ops ship and used the cloak + MWD trick and found my sin traveling around 1km/s for a bit.


And you are talking about a cov ops ship fyi. They are actually designed to work like that.
I want to be able to shoot people that wander around lowsec. Having a cloak means they can wander around with impunity. I do roam. Roaming also gets old fast. since people just run past with the same bs trick now and again. Why should there be a game mechanic that allows any ship to avoid pvp?


Blops do not get the covert ops cloak.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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