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Miner Ganks
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Thorleifer
Yeti Cave
#101 - 2013-04-14 17:50:21 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
So, what's the difference in yield between a full yield Retriever and a max tank Mackinaw?

about 120 yield per minute (no implants/boosts) in favour of the retriever vs. my mack fit, but that requires mining drones and without tank or hobgobs you might die to belt rats :(

i'm no ~fitting expert~ mind


try 241m3 per min.
although we are talking 0 mlu mack vs 3mlu ret.



wait, so your comparison is dumb. 0 MLU Mack vs a 3 MLU Ret? That is a good comparison for you?

This thread does deliver.
Dave stark
#102 - 2013-04-14 17:52:07 UTC
Thorleifer wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
So, what's the difference in yield between a full yield Retriever and a max tank Mackinaw?

about 120 yield per minute (no implants/boosts) in favour of the retriever vs. my mack fit, but that requires mining drones and without tank or hobgobs you might die to belt rats :(

i'm no ~fitting expert~ mind


try 241m3 per min.
although we are talking 0 mlu mack vs 3mlu ret.



wait, so your comparison is dumb. 0 MLU Mack vs a 3 MLU Ret? That is a good comparison for you?

This thread does deliver.


it's not my comparison. some one asked for it, i delivered.
so yes, this thread does deliver.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#103 - 2013-04-14 17:55:26 UTC
Either way, with so little difference in effective yield, there is little reason to use a Mackinaw over a Retriever in public high-sec. Not worth the investment. Unless you are mining on your own often in mission locations or gravimetric sites, the Retriever is the ship to fly.

Considering the amount of Retrievers I can see in belts compared to Mackinaws, the miners are agreeing.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#104 - 2013-04-14 17:56:35 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Ganking is basicly EvE with Easy-mode on.


True enough. Leaving your poorly tanked ship AFK at a celestial is about as easy as you can make it for people to gank you, short of actually activating self destruct yourself.

That only leaves the mystery of why anyone would think that it's surprising that other players will pick up easy wins and profits in a competitive PvP game.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dave stark
#105 - 2013-04-14 17:59:37 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Either way, with so little difference in effective yield, there is little reason to use a Mackinaw over a Retriever in public high-sec. Not worth the investment. Unless you are mining on your own often in mission locations or gravimetric sites, the Retriever is the ship to fly.

Considering the amount of Retrievers I can see in belts compared to Mackinaws, the miners are agreeing.


fun fact.

retrievers account for more volume mined than mackinaws when looking at high sec ores.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2013-04-14 17:59:46 UTC
Abrazzar asked for that comparison, I assume it was just out of interest

I'm more interested in the comparison between a practically gank-tanked mack between a practically gank-tanked retriever, and I believe the tanked mack comes out on top with a respectable yield, more ehp, more cargo and a flight of drones

even versus the max yield retriever, though, the mack's yield is comparable
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-04-14 18:02:12 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Either way, with so little difference in effective yield, there is little reason to use a Mackinaw over a Retriever in public high-sec. Not worth the investment. Unless you are mining on your own often in mission locations or gravimetric sites, the Retriever is the ship to fly.

Considering the amount of Retrievers I can see in belts compared to Mackinaws, the miners are agreeing.


fun fact.

retrievers account for more volume mined than mackinaws when looking at high sec ores.

(faster training time for alts/bots i reckon but i won't say for sure because i don't know)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#108 - 2013-04-14 18:03:08 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Abrazzar asked for that comparison, I assume it was just out of interest

I'm more interested in the comparison between a practically gank-tanked mack between a practically gank-tanked retriever, and I believe the tanked mack comes out on top with a respectable yield, more ehp, more cargo and a flight of drones

even versus the max yield retriever, though, the mack's yield is comparable


Miners will pick the single worst tanked ship with the highest chance of getting ganked. Its not known why they do this.
Dave stark
#109 - 2013-04-14 18:03:45 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Abrazzar asked for that comparison, I assume it was just out of interest

I'm more interested in the comparison between a practically gank-tanked mack between a practically gank-tanked retriever, and I believe the tanked mack comes out on top with a respectable yield, more ehp, more cargo and a flight of drones

even versus the max yield retriever, though, the mack's yield is comparable


the difference is, when people choose to fly a retriever they don't tank it with modules and ehp, they tank with isk.

it's not unreasonable to assume that in any scenario, the retriever will always be fit for max yield.
Dave stark
#110 - 2013-04-14 18:05:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Abrazzar asked for that comparison, I assume it was just out of interest

I'm more interested in the comparison between a practically gank-tanked mack between a practically gank-tanked retriever, and I believe the tanked mack comes out on top with a respectable yield, more ehp, more cargo and a flight of drones

even versus the max yield retriever, though, the mack's yield is comparable


Miners will pick the single worst tanked ship with the highest chance of getting ganked. Its not known why they do this.


worst tanked ship mines most.
Dave stark
#111 - 2013-04-14 18:07:02 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Either way, with so little difference in effective yield, there is little reason to use a Mackinaw over a Retriever in public high-sec. Not worth the investment. Unless you are mining on your own often in mission locations or gravimetric sites, the Retriever is the ship to fly.

Considering the amount of Retrievers I can see in belts compared to Mackinaws, the miners are agreeing.


fun fact.

retrievers account for more volume mined than mackinaws when looking at high sec ores.

(faster training time for alts/bots i reckon but i won't say for sure because i don't know)


my alt can fly a mackinaw, it's still sitting in a retriever.

i would however, be VERY interested in seeing an updated set of data. i'm using old dev blog data. the difference would be interesting.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#112 - 2013-04-14 18:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Just to answer the questions…
Gallamoth Sickle wrote:
but can someone explain to me how/when eve became a gankers paradise in high sec?
2002 or so. It's been constantly nerfed for that putpose ever since, though, which is why it's an ultra-rare and ridiculously easily avoided event these days.

Quote:
I mean how is ok for someone to fly a ship worth a total of maybe 8-10 million take out somoene flying a ship worth 50m?
Because ISK is not a balancing factor. So in fact, you're asking the exact wrong question. Really, it should be “why do you need as much as 8–10M worth of ship to kill 50M — it shouldn't even be a 1/100th of that”.

Quote:
So i mean what defense is there?
A tank, some support, and paying attention goes a very very long way.

Quote:
Why does CCP seem to have buffed destroyers creating a situation that favors the ganker and leaves the ganked almost completely defensless?
Because destroyers were horribly underpowered and because the ganked are utterly and completely irrelevant when doing that, since none of their multitudinous defensive options were affected.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#113 - 2013-04-14 18:20:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


worst tanked ship mines most.


Isn't it great how a miners mind works?Big smile
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#114 - 2013-04-14 18:22:17 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Maybe CCP could make an Ore that isn't worth anything on the market, but that makes the miner immune to PVP. So If a barge is mining in a "xero ore" belt then it is invulnerable

This way miners could mine all they wanted with no risk.


Already exists.


Dave Stark wrote:
with the mackinaw, yes. with the hulk, i think it was roughly right where it was.

that guy from bat country who posts a lot (and who's name i can never remember how to spell) said a hulk with 16k ehp or more was unprofitable to gank. i could fit a max yield hulk with 16k ehp therefore i felt the hulk was spot on. mackinaw, not so much.

i feel all this change will do is push mining ships in to the situation we were in pre barge change, and back in to the situation the changes were introduced to try and move away from.


Just to mention, because the Mack uses one less expensive Strip Miner, it doesn't need quite as much tank to protect its fittings, because there's a lower value of fittings available to drop. That's part of its tank as well.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Dave stark
#115 - 2013-04-14 18:29:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


worst tanked ship mines most.


Isn't it great how a miners mind works?Big smile


and CCP's

*points at the hulk*
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#116 - 2013-04-14 18:33:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Why does CCP seem to have buffed destroyers creating a situation that favors the ganker and leaves the ganked almost completely defensless?
Because destroyers were horribly underpowered and because the ganked are utterly and completely irrelevant when doing that, since none of their multitudinous defensive options were affected.



Also, due to the simultaneous insurance nerf to ganking, it costs more in destroyers to gank a mining barge than it used to in Cruisers. The size of the gank ship is irrelevant, the cost to gank is the relevant part and Crucible increased that cost (same thing with ABCs vs insured BSes for freighters).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-04-14 19:41:12 UTC
Even if you tanked out a Hulk or Mackinaw.

You can have 20 Catalysts suicide gank fitted for a total of 200 million which is the equivalent of a mining barge Twisted

Try fitting a Hulk or Mackinaw that can tank 18 Catalysts suicide ganking it, It won't be possible.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#118 - 2013-04-14 19:52:28 UTC
Call Rollard wrote:
Even if you tanked out a Hulk or Mackinaw.

You can have 20 Catalysts suicide gank fitted for a total of 200 million which is the equivalent of a mining barge Twisted

Try fitting a Hulk or Mackinaw that can tank 18 Catalysts suicide ganking it, It won't be possible.


Fit said hulk in a way that would provide a profit for said 18 catalysts.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#119 - 2013-04-14 19:54:10 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
advice given to miners by people who don't mine is pretty worthless.


Hey now let's not confuse the perverted activities you people do in high sec to actual mining. What you people do have about as much to do with mining as ratting has to do with pvp.

I have worked with actual miners and I guard miners on a weekly basis.

They are a skittish race of critters that pack tank and they dock when going to the bathroom. They are so focused on their surroundings that they can barely pay attention to the mining itself. A sudden move or loud noise and they are gone in an instant.


And do not give me that bull about miners time to accelerate to warp speed. You do not get ganked because they catch you before reaching warp speed. They catch you because you activate the mining lasers and then go make breakfast or alt tab or watch TV.


These inhuman miners are called "bots" and can be setup to insta-warp to safe or POS in a variety of potentially dangerous situations.

If humans do what you say and they mine, then they are sorry morons.

In fact they are playing the least paid and least satisfying profession in game with the concentration and energy consumption that deserve other professions a multiple if not an order of magnitude better of such income.

Current mining is done AFK because it's such a sorry and poor excuse of a mechanic that it does not deserve any better than to be performed while AFK.

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Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-04-14 19:55:22 UTC
Call Rollard wrote:
Even if you tanked out a Hulk or Mackinaw.

You can have 20 Catalysts suicide gank fitted for a total of 200 million which is the equivalent of a mining barge Twisted

Try fitting a Hulk or Mackinaw that can tank 18 Catalysts suicide ganking it, It won't be possible.


I meant Exhumer lol