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incursions are slowly killing off LP store profits

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JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#161 - 2011-10-30 01:44:21 UTC
Jinn Rho wrote:
JackStraw56 wrote:
So, as I already said, incursions are not killing LP store profits. Some people are just mad that you can make too much isk running high sec incursions.

Let's make the issue clear.

Mocam wrote:


...13440 LP that can be spent at ANY primary empire corporate LP store in the game.


Josefine Etrange wrote:


So, 13440 LP in 2 hours, thats what I get in a good day in 20 minutes with l4s Oo.
...But actually my favorite lp store items RAISE in price, and the raise alot, instead of getting cheaper. And they raise in price more than corrosponing tags are going up in price.
...Mission runners are nearly as flexible as incursion runners AND get based on your math way more lp per hour.

If you want to blaim incursions for market changes, try to blaim them for rising dogag prices, becaue here you would have a point.


If you've actually looked at contracts, Mocam, faction modules have gone up in price, not down.
This is probably due to incursioners blinging out all their whips. Ironically from your failed logic, Mocam, generally a crashed LP store would have faction mods drop in price due to over saturation (SUPPLY/DEMAND)... but as anyone who's been watching contract prices for hot modules can clearly see, those modules are rising in price. Meaning that the main market-changer is tags. Tags from missioners and ratters. Tags rising from pilots either transitioning from missions to incursions (which Josefine pointed out incs makes less LP than lvl4s, no standings gain), or pilots who are smart enough to follow tag supply/demand.

Honestly, the way I see it, just like CCP said, "[generally] working as intended," which to me is getting pilots out of their solo isk boat and into to group isk ships, meetinggreeting, and making use of the word teamwork to reach a greater audience. Again, Incursions are a socioeconomic catalyst for the better.

All you naysayers like to think Incursions are terrible for the economy, but the reality is just that you can't get past naysaying.

What has 2 thumbs and is getting paid selling faction to you shiny princesses?
This girl.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#162 - 2011-10-30 19:20:06 UTC
Josefine Etrange wrote:
So, 13440 LP in 2 hours, thats what I get in a good day in 20 minutes with l4s Oo. On a bad day maybe 40. Furthermore people who complain about low lp value fail to understand that no incursion runner has to buy items with low conversion rates.

I make 8k LP per mission on the higher paying missions running level 4s and they take lets say 20 minutes on average. I can make way more LP running missions (even before the exchange rate).

If I were to run incursions pretty fast, lets say 10 sites per hour (it can be higher sometimes, but also lower often when you need to reform after losing people), thats only 14k LP in an entire hour.

Incursions are not even close to killing the LP store market.

It is tag prices that are killing the LP store markets.
mingetek
Brainless in Space
#163 - 2011-10-30 22:36:36 UTC
JackStraw56 wrote:
Josefine Etrange wrote:
So, 13440 LP in 2 hours, thats what I get in a good day in 20 minutes with l4s Oo. On a bad day maybe 40. Furthermore people who complain about low lp value fail to understand that no incursion runner has to buy items with low conversion rates.

I make 8k LP per mission on the higher paying missions running level 4s and they take lets say 20 minutes on average. I can make way more LP running missions (even before the exchange rate).

If I were to run incursions pretty fast, lets say 10 sites per hour (it can be higher sometimes, but also lower often when you need to reform after losing people), thats only 14k LP in an entire hour.

Incursions are not even close to killing the LP store market.

It is tag prices that are killing the LP store markets.



if tags are "killing" the lp store then... do some anti faction missions or nag ccp to introduce an option to only do anti faction missions.
..
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#164 - 2011-10-31 04:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: JackStraw56
mingetek wrote:
JackStraw56 wrote:
Josefine Etrange wrote:
So, 13440 LP in 2 hours, thats what I get in a good day in 20 minutes with l4s Oo. On a bad day maybe 40. Furthermore people who complain about low lp value fail to understand that no incursion runner has to buy items with low conversion rates.

I make 8k LP per mission on the higher paying missions running level 4s and they take lets say 20 minutes on average. I can make way more LP running missions (even before the exchange rate).

If I were to run incursions pretty fast, lets say 10 sites per hour (it can be higher sometimes, but also lower often when you need to reform after losing people), thats only 14k LP in an entire hour.

Incursions are not even close to killing the LP store market.

It is tag prices that are killing the LP store markets.



if tags are "killing" the lp store then... do some anti faction missions or nag ccp to introduce an option to only do anti faction missions.

Why is it my job to fix it? I'm just pointing out what the problem is, and it is not LP from incursions which was the premise of this thread.
mingetek
Brainless in Space
#165 - 2011-10-31 04:29:22 UTC
there is enough compaints from high sec mission runners about gettign too many antifaction missions.

THERE is the real problem.

if you think tags are killing the lp store you are sorely mistaken.
it has been that way since the lp store was introduced.
i do admit that some of the items require stupid amounts of frig tags to get.
..
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#166 - 2011-10-31 12:56:26 UTC
Think its tags myself, its hard to repair standings really. If it was easier to repair would do more anit faction missions. Everytime I look at LP store and want an item its always cheaper to buy that item then redeem it thanks to tags.

After I have a kronos and rail buff, look forward to do anit faction mission, since can do lvl 4s faster, then its easier to repair. thats my plan so far, otherwise its annoying as **** to repair standings.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#167 - 2011-10-31 13:05:59 UTC
Well though it could be incursion LP. Like lots of easy LP, but not lots of easy tags. So people need more tags to match LP. More demand higher prices. Suppose CCP could add more anti faction but easy to repair, or increase amount of tags in a ship kill. That way easy tags with easy LP. Or they could just nerf incurions LP, then dont need easy tags as well then. And faction is still a ***** to repair.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
mingetek
Brainless in Space
#168 - 2011-10-31 14:24:29 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Well though it could be incursion LP. Like lots of easy LP, but not lots of easy tags. So people need more tags to match LP. More demand higher prices. Suppose CCP could add more anti faction but easy to repair, or increase amount of tags in a ship kill. That way easy tags with easy LP. Or they could just nerf incurions LP, then dont need easy tags as well then. And faction is still a ***** to repair.



the anti faction missiosn are there.
ccp just to allow a option to allow anti faction missions over "standar" pirate missions
..
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#169 - 2011-10-31 20:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: JackStraw56
mingetek wrote:
if you think tags are killing the lp store you are sorely mistaken.

For many items it now costs more to buy the tags on the market for an LP store item than you would make in profit selling the item (completely ignoring the LP you would also be using).

Now please justify your statement given that information.

The problem is not that people have too much LP, it is that they don't have enough tags.
mingetek
Brainless in Space
#170 - 2011-11-01 00:59:16 UTC  |  Edited by: mingetek
JackStraw56 wrote:
mingetek wrote:
if you think tags are killing the lp store you are sorely mistaken.

For many items it now costs more to buy the tags on the market for an LP store item than you would make in profit selling the item (completely ignoring the LP you would also be using).

Now please justify your statement given that information.

The problem is not that people have too much LP, it is that they don't have enough tags.



simple... do anti faction missiosn and make a killing on the prices. either sellt he tags to other greedy bears or cash them in at the lp store for profit.

also how often d you hear i dont wanna do anti faction m,issiosn as i will be kos in other parts of empire?
that mentality has driven up prices as they want thier cake and eat it too
..
Varrinox
Shadows of the Empire
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#171 - 2011-11-01 07:42:51 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
Veryez wrote:


Vanguards are easier, but you are understating the risk in incursions. There is risk in assaults and headquarter sites, and it takes a lot more coordination to run those. Not to mention having a live event open up on you.


There is no risk in PvE, at least not from NPCs. Given its high sec, there is no risk.

Quote:
Also where is it written that making 100 mil per hour in highsec is wrong? My alt in 0.0 easily exceeds that amount, and I know traders/builders in highsec that easily break 100 mil per hour played?


Making 100mil/hr from PvE in high sec is a bad thing. Why go to low sec for a bit more reward when you can have fat 100/hr risk free reward in high sec? There is already too little incentive to make money in low sec. Incursions just exacerbated that problem.

Quote:


Lastly, lets say you get your wish. Lets say all rewards in highsec incursions are nerfed by a factor of 100. So that instead of getting 100 mil per hour, you were getting 1 mil. Remember that's a rate, and some hours you won't make that. Do you think people will run highsec incursions at all?


That hypothetical situation is about as far fetched as it could be.

Quote:
If it's so outlandish, everybody get a bling ship and run them. Earn this 100+ mil per hour that keeps getting quoted. Gangs form all the time in incursion zones, or better yet get a bunch of corpies and run them together (which is the purpose of an MMO), if everyone's making that income it's not outlandish, but simply the norm.


No, its still outlandish, the same way that lvl 4 missions were long considered (and still are by some) to provide way too high of isk/hr for high sec. Just because everyone's doing it, does not mean its okay...


Typical arrogant reply. The main point i disagree with it the 'there is no risk in incursions' I doubt if you have even flown them to be honest, the risk is...

You are there in your big fat shiny faction fitted battleship/t3 whatever, and you rely purely upon the logistics pilots in your gang to be aware and keep you alive, if they do not react in time or for whatever reason don't rep you, YOU WILL DIE.
How is there no risk in relying upon other players to keep you alive?
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#172 - 2011-11-01 12:32:47 UTC
huh, post did not show up. Anyway Mingetek: Usually what it is is hundreds of low rank tags, So even if you decided to take the faction hit and run faction missions for tags you would be losing. Because you would be running then looting (no way to know which ship might have a tag right?) L1 and L2 missions. Since that will take a couple of minutes even if you got a 'good' tag that runs around a million you are making less than you will get off of the Bounties running 4s. so the net result is that the bulk of the items in any LP store are pretty much worthless.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

yumike
Doomheim
#173 - 2011-11-01 15:27:39 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Just let the moons in high sec be moon mined and set back and watch the war decs fly.Twisted


Best idea in this entire thread.

I fail to understand the qq , Incursions aren't in highsec 100% of the time - either.
Sometimes they are even in npc null too!
Yes, highsec is big enough that there is almost always one incursion in there. So's lowsec, Oh hey.. So is null.
And you make more doing them in null.
Where is the qq coming from? It's not like the isk making potential isn't even higher in null through various other ways AND incursions when they are around.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#174 - 2011-11-01 16:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenris Anis
JackStraw56 wrote:
mingetek wrote:
if you think tags are killing the lp store you are sorely mistaken.

For many items it now costs more to buy the tags on the market for an LP store item than you would make in profit selling the item (completely ignoring the LP you would also be using).

Now please justify your statement given that information.

The problem is not that people have too much LP, it is that they don't have enough tags.


No. The Problem is that they are still wasting money, isk and time on BUYING this items. If they would buy instead items with better conversion rates, soon prices of other items would rise, or tag prices would fall.

If your selling items for 500isk/lp conversion rates, you simply doing it wrong. Thank you anyway. Even trading is pvp in eve, and you are on the losing side it seems.

Remove insurance.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#175 - 2011-11-03 07:03:18 UTC
Tenris Anis wrote:
JackStraw56 wrote:
mingetek wrote:
if you think tags are killing the lp store you are sorely mistaken.

For many items it now costs more to buy the tags on the market for an LP store item than you would make in profit selling the item (completely ignoring the LP you would also be using).

Now please justify your statement given that information.

The problem is not that people have too much LP, it is that they don't have enough tags.


No. The Problem is that they are still wasting money, isk and time on BUYING this items. If they would buy instead items with better conversion rates, soon prices of other items would rise, or tag prices would fall.

If your selling items for 500isk/lp conversion rates, you simply doing it wrong. Thank you anyway. Even trading is pvp in eve, and you are on the losing side it seems.

My best flips are around 6KI/LP honorable internet spaceship pilot. how are you?

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#176 - 2011-11-03 13:05:11 UTC
JitaJane wrote:

My best flips are around 6KI/LP honorable internet spaceship pilot. how are you?


Only ~3000 isk / LP with my current agent, switching soon to about 4.5k ... I guess I am on the losing side as well :D

Remove insurance.
xVx dreadnaught
modro
Northern Coalition.
#177 - 2011-11-03 14:02:15 UTC
Federation Navy Sensor Booster...

This is an example of why I think the system is broke. You can get a Shadow version. Identical in attributes for around 90million isk.

But if you were to buy the tags, or assume the value of the tags at least when converting LP to get the Blueprint to make these Fed versions. The cost is much higher. About 250mill each.

Which is why you don't see any on market. The only people that actually get these are people who want to Roleplay or Theme their fittings.

The answers are all above already, there are 3 possible solutions

1. Remove or reduce greatly the required number of tags for LP items.
2. Make the standings nerf from faction missions easier to correct.
3. Change "Tags" to "Tokens" and have Tokens be rewards you receive from Agents for completing certain missions*

*This is my personal Idea because I think part of the reason some tags are so valuable is that they are not guaranteed to drop from NPC's and no one likes pulling in all those wrecks to see. Where as you can see exactly what "Tokens" will be a reward for you if you take this faction mission... so it's then a choice you can make clearly. Take the standings hit, for the extra LP and these Tokens, rather than on the off chance I get some nice tags.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#178 - 2011-11-03 16:35:53 UTC
What is essential wrong with "useless" items? Markets for tags could change, modules could be come more useful, and more important: People in this tread proofed that they still waste their time to buy items with very bad conversion rates, so actually those items are good, as they offer players choices, even when this choices are sub-optimal.

Remove insurance.
Spineker
#179 - 2011-11-03 17:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
What they need to do is stop the respawn in incursions period. Just like missions and most other plexs etc. It was not very smart to make them farmable to start with. It is just a fountain of isk right now.

Turn off LP exchange also if you want LP go run missions for that Corp not difficult to understand.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2011-11-03 17:55:38 UTC
We had a discussion on MD a while back on this, here are my updated thoughts from that.

What you have with LPs is a market pinched on both sides - costs go up as the supply of tags diminishes compared to its demand while at the same time profits go down because of decreased demand for LP store items and increased availability of LPs.

  • Reduction on level of tags

Standings & Incursions - because of the nature of incursions (you need to be able to travel throughout K-space to participate in them) many mission runners with an interest in incursions are far more averse to having deep negative standings with an empire. Effectively Incursions "punishes" those pilots which run missions against factions.

Faction Warfare - Requires tags but does not generate tags.

Speculative: Did change to agents affect the rate at which faction missions are offered? - Actually in some ways this is being confirmed, agents offer less and less faction missions as you decline them over time.

More speculation: People these days are far more averse to having negative faction standings as it has overall a greater impact than before. Points of impact include more WH exploration (you don't know which empire you will end up with) or access to trade hubs etc.

  • Increase in LP

Blitzing - More people blitzing away these days

Agent access - Much easier agent access following the changes to the agent system - everyone gets more LP

All of which leads to an increase in the expense of tags. This is exacerbated by a decrease in the demand for LP store items (from missions) because of competition from:

Exploration - becoming more prevalent in some instances the dedspace modules perform better and are cheaper than LP equivalents.

Drop in demand - Reduced player activity particularly from the bitter vet category has reduced the demand of the LP store items. If the winter expansion is successful, this point might be reversed.

Incursion gear & LP - in some instances (e.g. implants) high end incursion materials is preferred to traditional LP stores - this creates a surplus of LPs which go into items which require tags. The ability to convert CONCORD LP into any kind of LP allows the sniping of high value LPs.

LP value is overall decreasing - yes there are still some good items out there but not many and not as good as they used to be.