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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1781 - 2013-04-13 15:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
Hmm.

I wonder if it's time to reconsider the change to the game that resulted in a nearly hard coded limit of 5x active drones.

I think a dedicated drone boat using 10 active drones (restoring the old +1 Active Drone Per Level), could be very interesting as a Gallente racial flavour. Might be best reserved for T2 ships though.

I may miss the days where Drones and Drone Interfacing were 1+ Drone Controlled per level each, resulting nearly every ship fielding 10, and the drone ships that had the +1 Drone controlled per level having 15 on the field at once.

Would make for a very interesting Dominix though, and set it apart from the new 'Geddon. Same applies for Vexor/Arb and Myrm/Proph.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#1782 - 2013-04-13 15:13:54 UTC
Roime wrote:

1) my fit has 84km drone control range, just add more DLAs, dps is lost only for the close range option
2) that's more than others
3) Tristan happens to be one of the best frigates atm

Because of it's superior tracking, flexibility and equal ability to brawl and snipe, it can shoot anything at any range.

You're not using it for anything anyway, just keep shooting pods and shuttles in Jita mate.

Domi will find it's uses in fleets, if CCP comes through with their plan to tweak with sentry drone usability.




1)Depends on skills, but now we're arguing about a <10km difference so w/e.
2)Until a single bomber drops all your damage, because sentries are still hilariously easy to pop and not so hilariously easy to replace.
3)Don't be dense, you and I both know that a tristan with 3 TCs would be largely useless.

Also, anything at any range? Sure, except anything past 100km or so, but we both know that fights never happen at that range :)
It actually sounds a lot like the fleet tengu, but worse since it'll be the size of a barn, have worse resists, be much slower and have easily popped damage.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#1783 - 2013-04-13 15:22:07 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Everyone trying to turn the hyperion back to what it was before, or asking for the utility high to be returned on the megathron are bad and should feel bad.


Sure thing. In this change Hyper looses 10% of gun DPS.

Increased Drone bay and bandwidth do not cover this DPS loss even remotely.

So basically after this patch Hyper will be just worse than before.

Whatever.
smoking gun81
Doomheim
#1784 - 2013-04-13 15:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: smoking gun81
Irya Boone wrote:
Where is is the Electronic Warfare Bonus on the Dominix like on the scorpion or armageddon ?? !!!Roll


Can we please get away from the domi as THE ship of the gallente line up to get any such fictional E-War bonus...

Johnny Aideron wrote:
OK I'm not very happy with the Hyperion I suggested in retrospect. I think the original CCP proposal for the Hyperion might have been OK if they added a bonus to armour rep capacitor use (in addition to repair amount) so that you could run two reps with a single injector.


You already can: From earlier in the thread

smoking gun81 wrote:

OMG their has to be a consequence for your actions so obviously no you are not going to be stable ( however 2 x LAR's = 800 GJ over 15 seconds standard over the 10 seconds your injector cycles so if you are not shooting you can be stable injecting cap 800's ) you want to shoot MWD point and so on then something has to suffer.



And totally agree here:

Buzzmong wrote:
I also think you're nerfing the drone use of the megathron too harshly, it should keep 125mbit bandwidth and 125m3 bay, drones ARE other Gallente weapons after all. The other changes to the Gal lineup are pretty aces though Smile


If the mega takes a hit on its drone use I believe it should have an extra turret ( total of 8 turrets ) with a drone bay around the 50 - 75m3 mark and a bandwidth of 50 Mbit/sec with a slot loadout of 8-4-7.
Hell you could even give the mega an E-War bonus something like:
+7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed and Large Hybrid Turret falloff per Level
+ 7.5% ( +10% would make it fall more inline with the Armageddon E-war bonus that everyone is so concerned about ) bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor range per level

Askulf Joringer wrote:

I personally feel that all active tanking bonuses should come with a 4% or 5% reduction in cap consumption of armor/shield reppers per level.


This comes from warfare links.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1785 - 2013-04-13 15:27:03 UTC
CCp should go back to the whole method 'gamers dont know what they want, we will give them ships and they will have to deal'

crying about projectiles having to be fit on dominix now? o yeah like amarr had to do for 6 years?

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1786 - 2013-04-13 15:33:00 UTC
Askulf Joringer wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:

Yes, but (arguments about 'fleet' rail fits aside) ROF bonus, while losing 2 heavy drones results in a net decrease, which is what Throktar (above) was discussing.

Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 5 Ogre II's = 1230 DPS (now, with damage bonus)
Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 3 Ogre II's = 1164 DPS (future, with ROF bonus)

Just out of interest, putting the drone bay back to 125/125 would put that up to 1291.


Now look at it with 3x mag stabs on the "future" version of the ship. Or look at the extra tank you get by another plate or hardener. The "megathron nerf" is hardly a nerf at all.


The third mag stab just puts you back to where we were with the current levels of dps, but with no utility and the same tank. If you use the extra slot for tank, you'll have the same dps as you would if you just used only 1 mag stab on the current version. Obviously the numbers are a bit different but we're only talking about a difference of maybe 30 dps. IMO it's not worth it to sacrifice the utility. I'd be fine with it if we got the 125mb bandwidth as well but by cutting the drone bay these changes just feel like a nerf.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1787 - 2013-04-13 16:29:35 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Everyone trying to turn the hyperion back to what it was before, or asking for the utility high to be returned on the megathron are bad and should feel bad.


Sure thing. In this change Hyper looses 10% of gun DPS.

Increased Drone bay and bandwidth do not cover this DPS loss even remotely.

So basically after this patch Hyper will be just worse than before.


Stop being daft and fit a mag stab in the 7th low, omg, now it does more dps than before and you have a utility high, and two waves of light drones on top of your 5 heavies. Oh yeah, and it's easier to fit now because you only need to fit 6 guns instead of 8. Dual rep full ion setups with 2x heavy cap injectors and a heavy nuet will be possible for sure.

Stop being dumb people, Hyperion is getting buffed in it's intended role.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1788 - 2013-04-13 16:33:41 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
Askulf Joringer wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:

Yes, but (arguments about 'fleet' rail fits aside) ROF bonus, while losing 2 heavy drones results in a net decrease, which is what Throktar (above) was discussing.

Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 5 Ogre II's = 1230 DPS (now, with damage bonus)
Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 3 Ogre II's = 1164 DPS (future, with ROF bonus)

Just out of interest, putting the drone bay back to 125/125 would put that up to 1291.


Now look at it with 3x mag stabs on the "future" version of the ship. Or look at the extra tank you get by another plate or hardener. The "megathron nerf" is hardly a nerf at all.


The third mag stab just puts you back to where we were with the current levels of dps, but with no utility and the same tank. If you use the extra slot for tank, you'll have the same dps as you would if you just used only 1 mag stab on the current version. Obviously the numbers are a bit different but we're only talking about a difference of maybe 30 dps. IMO it's not worth it to sacrifice the utility. I'd be fine with it if we got the 125mb bandwidth as well but by cutting the drone bay these changes just feel like a nerf.


The difference is the manner in which the dps is being delivered. Turret dps is > heavy drone dps. The reasons are numerous. As for the ship returning to 125m3, naaa, would be too much, 100m3 is far more reasonable.

Again people also seem to forget that the ship is getting faster which will allow for more time on target. While the overall applied dps advantage of this speed buff may not be significant, it's still present and if we are comparing values that are within a few % of each other in terms of raw dps, a few % more "applied" dmg in a fight due to decreased travel time should also not be scoffed at.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1789 - 2013-04-13 16:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Askulf Joringer wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:

Yes, but (arguments about 'fleet' rail fits aside) ROF bonus, while losing 2 heavy drones results in a net decrease, which is what Throktar (above) was discussing.

Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 5 Ogre II's = 1230 DPS (now, with damage bonus)
Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 3 Ogre II's = 1164 DPS (future, with ROF bonus)

Just out of interest, putting the drone bay back to 125/125 would put that up to 1291.


Now look at it with 3x mag stabs on the "future" version of the ship. Or look at the extra tank you get by another plate or hardener. The "megathron nerf" is hardly a nerf at all.
You still snipped the context to which I was replying to but ok...

1270 DPS, 3 mag stab, 3 Ogre II's
But noting this is at +33% increased cap usage.

Not as clear cut as some here are making out, yes it will be a buff to rail fits, but to blaster fits? debatable at best, though granted, needs the hind-sight of how fits might evolve in response.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1790 - 2013-04-13 16:43:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Askulf Joringer
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Askulf Joringer wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:

Yes, but (arguments about 'fleet' rail fits aside) ROF bonus, while losing 2 heavy drones results in a net decrease, which is what Throktar (above) was discussing.

Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 5 Ogre II's = 1230 DPS (now, with damage bonus)
Ion II's, 2 mag stab, + 3 Ogre II's = 1164 DPS (future, with ROF bonus)

Just out of interest, putting the drone bay back to 125/125 would put that up to 1291.


Now look at it with 3x mag stabs on the "future" version of the ship. Or look at the extra tank you get by another plate or hardener. The "megathron nerf" is hardly a nerf at all.
You still snipped the context to which I was replying to but ok...

1270 DPS, 3 mag stab, 3 Ogre II's.




So more dps, more of it being turret dps, which then means the overheat value of the overall dps is inflated even more. Couple this with a reduction in travel time between targets and you're looking at a ship that is better at just about everything other than the loss of a utility high.

My point stands, people are being babies about the Megathron change.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1791 - 2013-04-13 16:55:40 UTC
Personally I'm not sold on the speed being all that much of an advantage. The idea of an "attack" battleship just seems already obsolete because of the attack battlecruisers. The speed would have to be much better than it is now to really give it an "attack" profile. I think they should not try and balance the BS based on roles and rather just make sure they make sense as individual ships. Roles are fine and dandy for cruisers and maybe even BCs but for BS you'd have to drastically change the stats for them to make sense in any role beyond heavy tank ewar or heavy combat.
Johnny Aideron
Order of Rouvenor
#1792 - 2013-04-13 17:08:31 UTC
The idea seems to be that Gallente need an attack battleship (out of simple obligation to the roles format), the Megathron might be the least worst choice, therefore it gets to be the attack battleship. I'm not sure anybody who uses the Megathron is really interested in the extra agility and, indeed, the people who like the present proposal are mostly interested in turning the Megathron into a brick-plated competitor with the Abbadon, not a speed/agility competitor with the Tempest.

I think Gallente should have three combat battleships actually.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1793 - 2013-04-13 17:11:15 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
Personally I'm not sold on the speed being all that much of an advantage. The idea of an "attack" battleship just seems already obsolete because of the attack battlecruisers. The speed would have to be much better than it is now to really give it an "attack" profile. I think they should not try and balance the BS based on roles and rather just make sure they make sense as individual ships. Roles are fine and dandy for cruisers and maybe even BCs but for BS you'd have to drastically change the stats for them to make sense in any role beyond heavy tank ewar or heavy combat.


There is no doubt that the increased speed will not be "game changing" However any speed advantage in terms of blaster usage is a dps buff in terms of fleet warfare. While nothing significant, it most certainly will have an impact of a few % more damage applied during a fight. Combined with the mega being more reliant on turrets than drones to achieve similar if not more dps than before it's going to do better.

The loss of the Nuet kind of sucks but I don't think it's nearly as significant as people are making it out to be. I'd rather fly the current proposal of the mega over the one that is live atm.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1794 - 2013-04-13 20:24:10 UTC
Johnny Aideron wrote:
The idea seems to be that Gallente need an attack battleship (out of simple obligation to the roles format), the Megathron might be the least worst choice, therefore it gets to be the attack battleship. I'm not sure anybody who uses the Megathron is really interested in the extra agility and, indeed, the people who like the present proposal are mostly interested in turning the Megathron into a brick-plated competitor with the Abbadon, not a speed/agility competitor with the Tempest.

I think Gallente should have three combat battleships actually.


just like it is right now then

the hype has the ehp of a combat bs and the speed on one

the mega has the slot layout of one (an attack brawler needs its neut)

and the domi has the speed and the fact it has to stay in the same spot to use its sentries

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#1795 - 2013-04-13 20:51:26 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:
[quote=Johnny Aideron]

" the hype has the ehp of a combat bs and the speed on one

the mega has the slot layout of one (an attack brawler needs its neut)

and the domi has the speed and the fact it has to stay in the same spot to use its sentries
.


One very big difference. In 99% of circumstances where the Hype will be flown it will have 1 or 2 reps.

Thus, a non-plated Hype will be as fast if not faster than any plated bs it wants to chase down and beat to death. it doesn't need the Attack designation to do the job. It just will. -1 gun and +1 low finally gives it the Pg to fit proper guns And tank.

8'th low on the Mega will let it do whatever you want it to. More DPS or better resists. Either way it will be fast enough to be effective.

AND, we still have the Navy Mega rebal coming soon.

Get ready to shake the dust off. We're useful again in 3,2,1.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1796 - 2013-04-13 21:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
Havegun Willtravel wrote:


One very big difference. In 99% of circumstances where the Hype will be flown it will have 1 or 2 reps.

Thus, a non-plated Hype will be as fast if not faster than any plated bs it wants to chase down and beat to death. it doesn't need the Attack designation to do the job. It just will. -1 gun and +1 low finally gives it the Pg to fit proper guns And tank.

8'th low on the Mega will let it do whatever you want it to. More DPS or better resists. Either way it will be fast enough to be effective.

AND, we still have the Navy Mega rebal coming soon.

Get ready to shake the dust off. We're useful again in 3,2,1.


here is me hoping we get a hypeNI with falloff+damage
and a domiNI with local rep bonus

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1797 - 2013-04-13 21:52:52 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
I'll just reiterate my stance that the drone tracking and range bonus is not the [main] problem here. It's the Armageddon.

At close range a 'Geddon can do exactly what a Domi can do but better. And sniper sentryboats fits will underperform compared to sniper gunboats since sentry drones are immobile and can be lost.

Yup, and the sentry drone returning wil be great for sentry drones of it can be done, but will not be the help the Dominix needs.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Tierere
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1798 - 2013-04-14 00:09:47 UTC
Attention Well if the domi is going to be truly thought of as the dedicated drone boat, and is loosing its hybrid bonus and dps how about enabling it to fit one or more 'Drone Control Units' that would make me happy.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#1799 - 2013-04-14 00:26:16 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Yup, and the sentry drone returning wil be great for sentry drones of it can be done, but will not be the help the Dominix needs.
Yeah would be great for sentries... but if they did, why would we ever use Heavies?

(And yes, some strange people use Heavy drones. In fact, I use them on a regular basis. Have done so for years. And amazingly they work, and actually blow stuff up. And by "stuff" I mean the ships of other players, both competent and incompetent. Which probably means I'm using them wrong, cuz everyone knows Heavy drones suck.)

As for whether or not "returning sentries" would help the Domi's "needs", I reckon that depends on what you determine those "needs" to be.
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1800 - 2013-04-14 00:44:36 UTC
Current Opinion

I honestly think i like the megathron more in its current configuration than the proposed configuration.

Pros and Cons of the Proposed Megathron:
Pro 1 Extra Low Slot, Faster

Cons Loss of utility high, loss of drone bandwidth, Loss of Hitpoints, Less Cap stability due to RoF Bonus, Higher Cap useage due to RoF Bonus, Higher Ammo Consumption due to RoF Bonus, Loss Of utility High Slot.

The Mega should be the Combat BS and the Hyperion should be the attack BS. A Self Repping Blaster Ganking Ship does not need more hitpoints. The Megathrons's Tracking bonus makes it more suitable for a combat BS. Unless the megathron is going to go machariel speed it will never be fast enough to justify the the hitpoint deficiency you're imposing on it. Also if the Hyperion becomes the attack BS its slot layout provides it with the ability to shield gank fit.

Also on the launcher hard point removal, there is no reason to remove it. It rarely ever serves any purpose, its only real purpose is some kind of judo bait fit making someone think LOL hes attacking me with a launcher causing them to aggress or otherwise splatter themselves upon your clever trolling fit. The only real reason to remove it is for the sake of removing it, which isnt really a reason at all.

Also if you're going with the removal of a high for the low suggest doing what you did with the Hyperion and drop it to 6 turrets and give it more DMG / ROF bonus to balance it out and preserve the utility high.

I can see where the dev team is having issues distinguising each of these ships to their own rights as they have forever been similiar. I do not agree with the directions you're taking because i feel you're changing them primarily to be different from each other rather than what they should be as themselves. The Hyperion is historically a very nich role's and proposed changes will set it above the megathron in most situation which i feel is wrong.

I feel as if ive properly conveyed my dismay for the proposed megathron changes, but just to be clear here is another paragraph. The current megathron is better than these proposed changes, the proposed changes are primarily to make it different from the hyperion, this is a scheme to make people go buy hyperion bpo's, long live the megathron, just delete the hyperion so the megathron can be what it is meant to be.

V/R
GeeBee