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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

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Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#561 - 2013-04-12 03:28:52 UTC
Jiji Hamin wrote:
Have you considered tracking rather than optimal for the NOmen, to fit with your new direction for Amarr, aka to go alongside Narbinger/Apoc? It would also fit with the new vexor bonus and with SFI tracking bonus. Also, giving it optimal will put it into direct competition with the Zealot and will give it more optimal than it really needs given the limitation of point range for kiting, (scorch+HPL2s gets you ~25km optimal without optimal bonus iirc) whereas medium pulse kiters could always use with more tracking. With tracking, it fits more in line with Narbinger, the bonus is honestly better for the role of a point-range kiter, it has morein common with other faction cruisers, it doesn't encroach on Zealot territory, etc. Wondering what your rationale was for not giving it tracking?



I can already see it overshadowed by the zealot
tracking or maybe rof+damage bonus
I do see that you are running out of bonuses though and it is probably with its bonuses going to hit a mirror in either the zealot or the phantasm

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Shadragk Spellbound
#562 - 2013-04-12 05:04:55 UTC
Why does every ship has to be specialized in a certain direction?
MukkBarovian
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#563 - 2013-04-12 05:43:54 UTC
The Scythe is getting two full bonuses. 10% AC ROF and 10% missile damage per lvl. Its fine, usable either way.
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#564 - 2013-04-12 14:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiji Hamin
Crazy KSK wrote:
Jiji Hamin wrote:
Have you considered tracking rather than optimal for the NOmen, to fit with your new direction for Amarr, aka to go alongside Narbinger/Apoc? It would also fit with the new vexor bonus and with SFI tracking bonus. Also, giving it optimal will put it into direct competition with the Zealot and will give it more optimal than it really needs given the limitation of point range for kiting, (scorch+HPL2s gets you ~25km optimal without optimal bonus iirc) whereas medium pulse kiters could always use with more tracking. With tracking, it fits more in line with Narbinger, the bonus is honestly better for the role of a point-range kiter, it has morein common with other faction cruisers, it doesn't encroach on Zealot territory, etc. Wondering what your rationale was for not giving it tracking?



I can already see it overshadowed by the zealot
tracking or maybe rof+damage bonus
I do see that you are running out of bonuses though and it is probably with its bonuses going to hit a mirror in either the zealot or the phantasm


Do you think the NOmen would be good with five guns, tracking and optimal bonuses? Also, how do the devs conceptualize the Navy Cruiser/HAC comparison? I always thought that they designed navy cruisers to be more well rounded (navy ships in general) whereas T2 often had more deisgn focus (HACs in perticular always havign speed, resists native to the hull and ample range bonuses), and so the old Nomen/Zealot comparison made sense in that context, just like the SFI/Vaga comparison makes sense as well. Are they retooling the NOmen to be on a progression path towards the Zealot now rather than being a sibling hull tha emphasizes different elements (IE, HAC focuses on pew pew, speed and tank, faction has utility high, drones) or maybe a bit of both?

Anyway, I would love a dev post at some point explaining the "theory" being navy ships vs particular classes of T2 ship, even if it is just to confirm that Navy ships are designed to be "generalists" and AFs/Inties/HACs have more role focus. Also, an explicit articulation of what the role focus is or will be for HACs would be super sweet as well.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#565 - 2013-04-12 18:20:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Navy Omen DPS is definitely something I'm thinking about, but I'm leaning towards letting it hit SISI before making and drastic changes to it. We need to be careful about making it too strong at long range dps, and if people really need more DPS fit they can always run a flight of Valks and take the downsides of the slower drones.


I'm totally fine with letting it hit Sisi before making any drastic changes to it, but I don't know if I approve of the idea of giving ships an impractical way of getting EFT DPS. It tends to do nothing but disguise actual problems with how the ships are/can be used.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#566 - 2013-04-12 18:49:24 UTC
Jiji Hamin wrote:


Do you think the NOmen would be good with five guns, tracking and optimal bonuses? .



it would be better I guess slightly more dps but it would need some pg to compensate for the gun
also the idea of using medium drones for dps in high speed combat is bad they just can't apply much of their dps
it should rather have a bigger damage bonus and it drone bay halved

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#567 - 2013-04-12 20:58:47 UTC
Jiji Hamin wrote:

Do you think the NOmen would be good with five guns, tracking and optimal bonuses? Also, how do the devs conceptualize the Navy Cruiser/HAC comparison? I always thought that they designed navy cruisers to be more well rounded (navy ships in general) whereas T2 often had more deisgn focus (HACs in perticular always havign speed, resists native to the hull and ample range bonuses), and so the old Nomen/Zealot comparison made sense in that context, just like the SFI/Vaga comparison makes sense as well. Are they retooling the NOmen to be on a progression path towards the Zealot now rather than being a sibling hull tha emphasizes different elements (IE, HAC focuses on pew pew, speed and tank, faction has utility high, drones) or maybe a bit of both?

Anyway, I would love a dev post at some point explaining the "theory" being navy ships vs particular classes of T2 ship, even if it is just to confirm that Navy ships are designed to be "generalists" and AFs/Inties/HACs have more role focus. Also, an explicit articulation of what the role focus is or will be for HACs would be super sweet as well.


I actually don't think that the new NOmen is on a "progression path" towards the Zealot. I think it fulfills an entirely different role than the Zealot. I just contend that it should look a bit more like a Zealot than an Ishtar. More damage bonus, less drone bay, overall EFT damage nerf, overall practical damage buff.

/shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#568 - 2013-04-12 23:49:25 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Since the cruisers are being balanced via tiercide, will the LP store requirements for the navy cruisers be equal now?


Yup


To the higher amount, lower amount, or the average?


Excellent question. The answer is: Higher.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#569 - 2013-04-13 00:13:18 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jiji Hamin wrote:

Do you think the NOmen would be good with five guns, tracking and optimal bonuses? Also, how do the devs conceptualize the Navy Cruiser/HAC comparison? I always thought that they designed navy cruisers to be more well rounded (navy ships in general) whereas T2 often had more deisgn focus (HACs in perticular always havign speed, resists native to the hull and ample range bonuses), and so the old Nomen/Zealot comparison made sense in that context, just like the SFI/Vaga comparison makes sense as well. Are they retooling the NOmen to be on a progression path towards the Zealot now rather than being a sibling hull tha emphasizes different elements (IE, HAC focuses on pew pew, speed and tank, faction has utility high, drones) or maybe a bit of both?

Anyway, I would love a dev post at some point explaining the "theory" being navy ships vs particular classes of T2 ship, even if it is just to confirm that Navy ships are designed to be "generalists" and AFs/Inties/HACs have more role focus. Also, an explicit articulation of what the role focus is or will be for HACs would be super sweet as well.


I actually don't think that the new NOmen is on a "progression path" towards the Zealot. I think it fulfills an entirely different role than the Zealot. I just contend that it should look a bit more like a Zealot than an Ishtar. More damage bonus, less drone bay, overall EFT damage nerf, overall practical damage buff.

/shrug

-Liang


The Slicer and Retribution coexist. The Navy Omen and Zealot will too. The Omen still needs to be dragged behind the shed though.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#570 - 2013-04-13 00:28:10 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

The Slicer and Retribution coexist. The Navy Omen and Zealot will too. The Omen still needs to be dragged behind the shed though.


Aye, that's my point exactly. I'm more concerned about how impractical the 50m^3 drone bay is on the NOmen.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#571 - 2013-04-13 16:01:21 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

The Slicer and Retribution coexist. The Navy Omen and Zealot will too. The Omen still needs to be dragged behind the shed though.


Aye, that's my point exactly. I'm more concerned about how impractical the 50m^3 drone bay is on the NOmen.

-Liang

im more concered with how, almost every ship in the game now has utility highs EXCEPT amarr. Amarr where supposed to be the cap race, all about cap. now who fits cap modules? everybody, almost every minmatar ship gets a neut.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#572 - 2013-04-14 16:29:56 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Aye, that's my point exactly. I'm more concerned about how impractical the 50m^3 drone bay is on the NOmen.
-Liang
That's for a full set of dishonor drones for GTFO. :D
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#573 - 2013-04-14 16:30:44 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:

im more concered with how, almost every ship in the game now has utility highs EXCEPT amarr. Amarr where supposed to be the cap race, all about cap. now who fits cap modules? everybody, almost every minmatar ship gets a neut.

The have removed utility high slots from most Gallente hulls. (yes, Navy Aug and Navy Vexor have utility high slots)
Naomi Anthar
#574 - 2013-04-14 17:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
What the heck ? I was about to say excellent changes ... but no i just cannot. You take away cap bonus for NOmen ... i like this . I though you also give some more cap . BUT ACTUALLY you NERFED it super hard by - 0,3 recharge rate. Cmon you cannot be serious so now we gotta fly ship without cap bonus AND NERFED cap recharge rate. WTF REALLY ? Reverse this change NOW.

And what is the meaning of flatening cap recharge rate for all races on all ships ? WHY ? I see no reason why damn caldari or minimatar ship would need same cap recharge rate as amarr ship. Explain logic behind this stealth nerf across the board - not just navy cruisers.
Shadragk Spellbound
#575 - 2013-04-14 20:01:46 UTC
Why don't you change ships which are not usefull at the moment. The NOmen is good as it is. Please don't change it.
Perihelion Olenard
#576 - 2013-04-15 00:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Can you put a different bonus on the navy vexor instead of the mining bonus? I highly doubt people will be mining in their navy vexor.

I originally didn't like the new navy vexor, but I'm thinking of some interesting fits, now.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#577 - 2013-04-15 00:42:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Navy Omen DPS is definitely something I'm thinking about, but I'm leaning towards letting it hit SISI before making and drastic changes to it. We need to be careful about making it too strong at long range dps, and if people really need more DPS fit they can always run a flight of Valks and take the downsides of the slower drones.


I'm totally fine with letting it hit Sisi before making any drastic changes to it, but I don't know if I approve of the idea of giving ships an impractical way of getting EFT DPS. It tends to do nothing but disguise actual problems with how the ships are/can be used.

-Liang



This, i generally don't even count drones when talking about dps on kiting ships. Its just too unreliable.


The problem with the Nomen is that its basically trying to fill the same niche as the Zealot for a similar price. Now the way that could be done (That i think is the plan) is to trade raw power for versatility.

The problem with that is that its not really doing that so much



I personally think you should try to balance it around making it able to use beams in a realistic way. Because that optimal range bonus lets it get great dps from beams; it just can't really use them because of fittings/cap

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Terianna Eri
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#578 - 2013-04-15 23:19:30 UTC
hey why did you turn the navy omen into a really really really really really garbage zealot
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#579 - 2013-04-16 00:32:19 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:

im more concered with how, almost every ship in the game now has utility highs EXCEPT amarr. Amarr where supposed to be the cap race, all about cap. now who fits cap modules? everybody, almost every minmatar ship gets a neut.

The have removed utility high slots from most Gallente hulls. (yes, Navy Aug and Navy Vexor have utility high slots)

i know that, but arnt gallente utility highslots supposed to be for drone upgrades? not neuts. Amarr were supposed to be the cap race.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#580 - 2013-04-16 19:43:32 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:

im more concered with how, almost every ship in the game now has utility highs EXCEPT amarr. Amarr where supposed to be the cap race, all about cap. now who fits cap modules? everybody, almost every minmatar ship gets a neut.

The have removed utility high slots from most Gallente hulls. (yes, Navy Aug and Navy Vexor have utility high slots)

i know that, but arnt gallente utility highslots supposed to be for drone upgrades? not neuts. Amarr were supposed to be the cap race.


neuts OR NOSs for that matter since most of our ships arent even cap stable with guns + scram and web

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!