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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Ai Shun
#1161 - 2013-04-10 23:00:18 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Exactly the problem. With the current game mechanics, null simply cannot ever progress beyond fruitstand. It's got nothing to do with cunning, guile, ambition or even isk. The mechanics simply do not allow it.


Hence why I said:

Ai Shun wrote:
Now what would be awesome is if Sov is held for a period of time and area is stable and secure it could attract colonists and become more stable and grow (Perhaps even increasing it's security status ) until it has the same capability as a secured, stable sector of space.


But you were a bit too quick to jump into ZOMG NOES RL COMPARISON BECAUSE OF WILD WEST COMMENT to see that we're essentially on the same page Lol
Tesal
#1162 - 2013-04-10 23:13:26 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
[While you can grow your own vegetables, your little fruitstand is not the produce section of a grocery store.

It just isn't.


Exactly the problem. With the current game mechanics, null simply cannot ever progress beyond fruitstand. It's got nothing to do with cunning, guile, ambition or even isk. The mechanics simply do not allow it. This means CCP are telling people they should spend trillions invading, developing and defending null space so they can have little more than a fruit stand when the highsec supermarket is open for business and free to use.

If you don't see a problem with that, then we're right back to the "trolling or ********" part.


Changing industry could lead to a situation where the CFC and HBC become dominant players in industry. It could make the big powers become even more entrenched and more unbalanced and instead of increasing pvp, it could reduce conflict. Nuking hi-sec and turning everything over to null could have unpredictable consequences.

Shiite proverb: The first to reason by analogy was the devil. Fruit stand analogies don't mean anything.

When there was real war in null, and there were real threats to the big powers, this wasn't even a topic of conversation. Now we get 50 page threadnaughts about it, with a lot of people believing this would help fix null. In my opinion this is a peacetime discussion and goes to show how stagnant null has become.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1163 - 2013-04-10 23:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Ai Shun wrote:
But you were a bit too quick to jump into ZOMG NOES RL COMPARISON BECAUSE OF WILD WEST COMMENT to see that we're essentially on the same page Lol


No, we're not on the same page. Your idea, pie in the sky as it is, has the endpoint at literally being highsec. Why the hell would anyone bother moving to an area of space, spending trillions in conquest and development and defense, simply to end up with a pale imitation of highsec?

That's the problem with any idea that requires leaving highsec alone - it's neglecting the fact that highsec isn't just 'better' or 'safer', it's perfect. At best, any kind of buff would be attempting to compete with perfection, and that's just never going to work.

Tesal wrote:
When there was real war in null, and there were real threats to the big powers, this wasn't even a topic of conversation. Now we get 50 page threadnaughts about it, with a lot of people believing this would help fix null. In my opinion this is a peacetime discussion and goes to show how stagnant null has become.


And why isn't there "real war" in null anymore? Could it be that the mechanics of war suck? That conquest for the sake of it isn't enough to make people commit to losing what they have anymore?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1164 - 2013-04-11 01:26:06 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:
But you were a bit too quick to jump into ZOMG NOES RL COMPARISON BECAUSE OF WILD WEST COMMENT to see that we're essentially on the same page Lol


No, we're not on the same page. Your idea, pie in the sky as it is, has the endpoint at literally being highsec. Why the hell would anyone bother moving to an area of space, spending trillions in conquest and development and defense, simply to end up with a pale imitation of highsec?

That's the problem with any idea that requires leaving highsec alone - it's neglecting the fact that highsec isn't just 'better' or 'safer', it's perfect. At best, any kind of buff would be attempting to compete with perfection, and that's just never going to work.

Tesal wrote:
When there was real war in null, and there were real threats to the big powers, this wasn't even a topic of conversation. Now we get 50 page threadnaughts about it, with a lot of people believing this would help fix null. In my opinion this is a peacetime discussion and goes to show how stagnant null has become.


And why isn't there "real war" in null anymore? Could it be that the mechanics of war suck? That conquest for the sake of it isn't enough to make people commit to losing what they have anymore?

Or maybe it's not worth taking what other people have anymore.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1165 - 2013-04-11 01:28:59 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Or maybe it's not worth taking what other people have anymore.


That part does keep happening, though.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Tesal
#1166 - 2013-04-11 01:49:53 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
And why isn't there "real war" in null anymore? Could it be that the mechanics of war suck? That conquest for the sake of it isn't enough to make people commit to losing what they have anymore?


Grinding Sov used to suck when it was POS count that controlled Sov. People were constantly spamming and attacking POS during wars. The Sov grind sucking isn't something new. Alarm clock ops were invented back then. There are more HP to grind now, but there are also more caps and supercaps to grind it. People used to kill each other because they were enemies and they hated each other. That's gone. The big powers tolerate each other now. They don't act. They don't even fight proxy wars. The new end game is ganking freighters in Hi-sec.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1167 - 2013-04-11 02:31:32 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Or maybe it's not worth taking what other people have anymore.


That part does keep happening, though.

Not as much as it used to.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1168 - 2013-04-11 02:32:21 UTC
Tesal wrote:
They don't even fight proxy wars.

That's news to me.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1169 - 2013-04-12 18:52:16 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
[While you can grow your own vegetables, your little fruitstand is not the produce section of a grocery store.

It just isn't.


Exactly the problem. With the current game mechanics, null simply cannot ever progress beyond fruitstand. It's got nothing to do with cunning, guile, ambition or even isk. The mechanics simply do not allow it. This means CCP are telling people they should spend trillions invading, developing and defending null space so they can have little more than a fruit stand when the highsec supermarket is open for business and free to use.

If you don't see a problem with that, then we're right back to the "trolling or ********" part.


Nono I get it. It makes sense. But you must see the platform of a lot of people use for as an excuse.

I'll give you an example and use your own corp, but don't take offense.. bear with me here.

If I'm wrong on an opinion, I'm told to go learn about it and get called a publord. Awesome isn't it? My learning came from the same people who are telling me I'm wrong, and that nullsec needs more slots. Ok wait... first I agree, now I'm told I'm wrong. And I'm a publord.

Then, I have another person telling me it's because of the fact that given the market, highsec is better. Well yea. Of course it is. Nullsec is too volatile to support it.

Too much NBSI.

OOOOhhhh wait Murk, now you're being carebear and soft! (never mind the fact I don't care that gatecamps or nbsi is what it is, I mentioned it's existence therefore I'm in love with it right? /sarcasm)

So everyone who does NOT want to be blown up and make money are in highsec. And its' all CCP's fault they encouraged strife and war and bigass battles to happen in non highsec.

But wait! Nullsec is supposed to be better because of risk vs reward! And it is. Just not on a linear level. Because it doesn't work like that.

Now you do have much better and greater income streams, you can do whatever you want, you choose to leave highsec behind because you want to go your own way and now you care about highsec's market.

But that's the point. Now you don't care so much about industry. You care about the market. That's where things get interesting.

Because you strayed away from industry, now you're just using industry as an income stream. Not to make things and enjoy your element, but as a way to make money. In an area not designed to support that market. It COULD support that market, but its' inhabitants don't want it to. Nevermind the fact nullsec is "supposed" to be about empire building, when you bar your gates from everyone else, you don't have a market to the same numbers as the people who accept traders with open arms.

So opening up nullsec's industry wouold be awesome, and create a fix, not just the fix you want, regardless of the reasons you give, because ultimately you want to thrive the same way highsec does, but without having the same mechanics that do allow highsec to do what it does.

Removing that would not improve anything other than giving you a better foothold to keep your pilots from using alts in highsec to do their trading.

Don't believe me? Don't shoot me if I ever come into your area. And I promise I'll buy something from one of your stations.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.