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Retaining new players, the non-new player pov.
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JonnyBigBoss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2013-04-12 16:35:31 UTC
I just began playing this game 7 days ago and feel your pain. I can see why it's had a hard time retaining new players and mostly is reserved for the elite people who started early. I have low skills, feel useless, and can't do anything fun.

It's unfortunate because I love the concept of EVE and absolutely love its setting.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2013-04-12 17:36:53 UTC
NARDAC wrote:
It amazes me how many people miss the forest for the trees.


I stuck with the game because I had real world co-workers that served as great mentors. Unless they already have friends in the game, where is the typical new player going to get that?


I was able to get into good fleets and trusted corps, because I had co-workers that had been playing for years and ran a trusted corp. Where is the typical new player going to get that?


And why is it so hard for a new player to get into a good PvP situation? Because of all the damage they can do with AWOXing, spying, thievery, scamming.

And not just "can do" massive damage. Happens all the time in this game.

And, it is not a rare occasion that you find a new player looking to do harm. It is well over half of people claiming to be new players, that are actually asshat alts looking to do harm.



Why the low retention rate? Because the new player experience really sucks, for someone that wants to PvP, but doesn't have contacts in the game.

It isn't as hard for a carebear to find a good corp looking to take them in, however.

Perhaps that explains the high % of carebears in the game. They have a higher retention rate because it is easier for them to find a carebear corp willing to take them in, then it is for a PvPer to find a good PvP corp willing to take them in.


Finding a "good fit" corporation is tough enough - you actually tried to make one... Gutsy and you see some of the problems with trying to run one. It takes a bit of knowledge on things that aren't that clearly documented to do it -- screening applicants, etc. Stuff that many discover as they try and build a corp.

It is fairly well known that getting in a good-fit player corp is the best way to keep players in this game. Getting in a bad-fit tends to remove players much faster than if they sit in NPC corporations. Trust - again, "your an idiot" if you get ripped off or ganked. Couple that with the fair number of players who get into trashing newer corporations and it is a problem.

Some of your assertions do seem a tad off. Example: How many players do you know who join this game, did so for the "world famous" PvE? It's not the #1 selling point for this game and where mentioned it usually is either preceded or followed up with a good deal of references to the PvP side of the game.

Yes we get some who start for this but no where near as many as those looking to get into PvP, but then find they don't care for how it works so back away. Yet these players still find other aspects of the game enjoyable so they stick around. Namely; the social aspects.

The way the game is designed is more decided by the players but mechanics dictate a lot too. When you play an immortal, there is no snuffing out the bad guys - mechanics have to keep them in check. Whereas the 'good guys' can never win, the bad guys can never really lose - their rewards methods are different.

As such, you either end up either joining them, avoiding interactions with them or quit the game. This is where your "carebears" come from - avoiding "the scum". Not "avoiding PvP", many are into PvP and have been for years across other games. It's avoiding the style of play brought here by the open environment which has filled EVE with a great many ass-hats.

The key to surviving here is getting in with a solid group that you do get along with and can handle being around. They too are here but take a bit more to find than the scammers and ass-hats. Is it worth the effort? That's your call.
Nico elScorpio
Care Bear Hi Sec Industries
#163 - 2013-04-12 21:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nico elScorpio
NARDAC wrote:

I'm an atheist, and behave in a very moral way. It's call humanism. Look into it.

The more broad the moral, the more narrow the view.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#164 - 2013-04-12 21:24:49 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


So, what you're saying is that spies and most forms of spying should be eliminated?


ALT spying should be eliminated, IMO. (I know, it's unrealistic, but one should be allowed to dream.)

Here's why:

Normally you cannot see into the head of a spy you're dealing with, even if you established him yourself. He might have his own separate agenda or even be a double agent.
Unless you're extremely schizophrenic, you will usually know that your Alt spy is neither.

Again it basically boils down to being terrible roleplay.



RL Spies may be members of the spy agency who is handling them, with falsified backgrounds, names, etc. They're not as effective as turning someone, but guess what? Alt spies are generally less effective than turning someone who is a member of the target group.
But due to the API, you can't create a false background without using an alt.

As for being unrealistic, we're immortal, the API allows recruiters nearly perfect knowledge of the history of 3 different people (alts on the same account), etc.

If you want to say Alts are bad roleplay (lolrp), you have to be against the API, possibly the data dump, and so many other things to be consistent. Also against a long MMO tradition of alts working together. Diablo II had storage alts, UO had the same (and alts for different purposes), and so on.

In fact, given the RP separation between mind and body already present in the game lore, you could do a perfectly reasonable RP justification for one mind controlling multiple capsuleers.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#165 - 2013-04-12 21:25:15 UTC
NARDAC wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:

One great benefit of noobs being able to shoot corp mates is RR setups and energy chains in high sec. We've all seen lolmails where a blinged mission boat met CONCORD response for accidentally hitting F1 instead of F2 on an out-of-corp fleet member. I know a guy that lost a 4bil tengu like that.


Safety has been added to prevent this.

No longer a problem. Unless you are a suicide ganker, that forgets to turn dafety back on, then accidentally suicide ganks yourself. Then, lol on you.

They create a game where you should never really trust ANYONE. Then they wonder why EVE has a new player retention issue?

More shocking is that people would try to blame this retention issue on carebears teaching players to play in a risk averse way? Really?

I'm not sure there are enough full blown sociopaths to keep EVE a viable game.

I mentioned the addition of the safety. No, mine's set yellow all the time, unless I'm ganking.

However, I have seen someone loose a rather expensive boat to CONCORD. A war had just ended 20 minutes before and the war targets were still red flashy, despite repeated session changes. So the player just assumed the war was extended and shot a flashy target with green safety. The logs showed nothing. He should have known war was over.

It's not about a game where you trust no one. It's about consequences, like when you misplace your trust and someone takes advantage of it. Is it so different from someone raiding the guild bank in WoW, or ninja looting a rare drop? Oddly enough, in WoW you would be told you ****** up and to HTFU in these scenarios. Unless said bank raiding guild member had their account security compromised and the heist was proved to be done by a hacker. All you can do is kick them from guild and spam chat how they are a bad bad man that touched you. The difference in EvE, is the game empowers you to enact consequences you deem appropriate.

Are the carebears solely to blame for player retention? I don't believe anyone has actually said that in the course of these discussions. Are corps that take in new players and misinform them, as a result of their own lack of knowledge a contributing factor? Most certainly. To what extent? Who knows.

All I know is, personally, dealing with asshattery and loss when I do something stupid, is a learning experience. Doing a repetitive task that bores me, while being told I can't do anything else for the first year, means I'm not going to be renewing a subscription.

Are there enough full blown sociopaths to keep the game running? There doesn't need to be. The fact EvE is a sandbox means there is no big new raid boss released every six months for you to defeat. Your great challenge in this player vs player game is defeating these "sociopaths" who make up the villainous population you are competing against. There is no better catalyst for co-operative carebearing in an MMO than "evil" players screwing with you, making you work together.

In fact, this all makes EvE THE game to play for an aspiring white knight, who sets out to mentor and protect the "good" players. It's all part of the great story. What kind of story would Star Wars be if there were no Sith?
NARDAC wrote:

EVE is a shart-tank in a constant state of feeding frenzy, where the vast majority of players are immature and immoral griefers that would scam their own mother of her last 2 ISK then Awox her last frig, just for the luls and because the rules allow it.... and CCP is surprised there is a low new player retention rate?

If what you claimed was true, we would all be living in high sec in the bubble of our personal one man corps by now. Yet we are not. There are people constantly out in space working together. I have the power to screw over my corp and make off with phat lewt. Why haven't I, despite the fact I'm more than willing to do it to other people given the chance?

Are there people I would awox "out of their last frig"? Sure. I'd do it to some just for the tears. Then gank their civilian mining laser fitted rookie ship. But they also did something to me to deserve it in the first place. Consequences.

Quote:
What box?

I downloaded from www.eveonline.com.
Show me the page where it says that people will pretend to be my friend, then shoot me in the face.

Again, not complaining. Just challenging the assertion that it is "right there on the box".


http://www.eveonline.com/sandbox/pirate/
In particular, the "This could be you" video is all about infiltrating and robbing/awoxing the Alliance that ganked you.

Also

http://www.eveonline.com/faq/what-is-eve-online/

"You are not restricted by predefined character classes or professions. You can trade to make a living, conduct mining operations, market your fighting skills as a mercenary, camp the spacelanes for profit as a pirate, conduct espionage and infiltration, focus on research and manufacturing, or perform increasingly profitable missions for NPC (non-player character) agents."

Makes no mention of any area of space being protected from said piracy/espionage and the above pirate page lists "My prey of choice is other capsuleers, as they often provide the greatest rewards"

Sounds pretty clear to me, that I should expect people to do whatever they can to screw with me.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#166 - 2013-04-12 22:35:07 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:

The game we call Eve is supposed to be hostile, ruthless, and unforgiving! Just like life.....


Where do you people live?

Where I live, we have police and firemen and ambulances and laws. Where I live, people go to jail for being hostile and ruthless. Where I live, we have unemployment, secondary education, housing assistance, food stamps, job training programs, free public schools and highly discounted community colleges, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, foster care, AFDC, FDA, OSHA, Coast Guard, Civil Air Patrol. Where I live, I can't tell you the last time I witnessed hostile, ruthless, unforgiving violence.

Where I live, we have all that.

We also have kids walking their dog, finding dead prostitutes in the park. Bodies dumped on the side of the highway. Drug addicts living off our tax dollars sleeping on the street and begging for change. People that will smash your car window for $0.25 and a pop bottle to return for deposit. Drug dealers that shoot at each other in the streets in broad daylight. Cops that show up to your house after you got robbed and tell you it's your fault, there was a dozen other break-ins in the area last night and they probably won't find the guy. Then call and ask for a donation a month later. Patented life-saving medicine that costs peanuts to produce, but middle class gross annual salaries to administer treatment.

When did I last witness this personally? Last place I worked I couldn't make it from the parking lot to the office without being propositioned by a $10 hooker that looks more like a starved diseased hyena than a human being. Saw people sticking needles in their arms or tripped over them passed out on the sidewalk on a semi-daily basis. See them begging their pimp for a burger at McDonalds. One of my friends was shot 7 times in a home invasion. He lived long enough to identify the shooter, who was known to police, in a taped statement before he died. The guy was never charged and walked off laughing. Not enough evidence you see, unless he's dumb enough to hand the gun over to police and confess.

My corporation takes all of my earnings on a daily basis, sits on them for two to three weeks, then sends me my 20% cut. I then pay over 30% of that cut to the government to fund all the awesome benefits you listed. Half of what's left goes to put a roof over my family's head.

Would you like to know more?

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38