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Retaining new players, the non-new player pov.
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Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#141 - 2013-04-12 10:32:55 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Tippia wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Anyway, within the context of a game, the only immoral actions are those that break the rules of the game or to attempt to create consequences outside of the game for actions that take place in the game. It's a wonderful concept called the magic bubble (or something like that).

It's “magic circle”, btw…


Thank you. I've been looking for the old GM Hormonia quote where she references the concept, but that explains why I've been having ****-all luck finding it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAr85xoS6Zc This guy does a great job of going over the magic circle effect in games.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#142 - 2013-04-12 11:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
NARDAC wrote:

It is not possible to discuss something, without it being perceived a complaining?
I simply stated the facts. *Edited for space


You started an "Eve is dying" thread. "New player retention is too low because of X,Y, and Z."

You do not have the "facts" to back that up. You are not stating "facts".

If you wanted to have a discussion then you could have opened with "I'm having some trouble, here's what happened, what can I do differently?"

Not:

NARDAC wrote:

Feeding lame, easy kills to the low sec residents. ...

If you ask me, the PvPer player base, like goons and AWOXers do FAR, FAR more to drive players away from the game than carebears do.


To keep new players, I think they need training corps that can take in these new players, and teach them the game,that are smaller and more easily able to keep track of and mentor these new players than EVE Uni, that don't blow up from the spying, thievery, war decs, awoxing, and other shinanigans that happen to corps that are trying to recruit new players.

The game mechanics allow people to harass these corps out of existence, so they go away as quickly as they form.
* Edited for space, see post #1 for complete...



People get AWOXed because they failed to follow some standard safety procedures; Fly a cheaper ship with people that you don't know well, scan their fit and cargo if you havn't gamed with them for 6 months or a year, don't go out with just 2 people and don't go out in a purely PvE fit.

Your other tragedies are the same, mistakes that you made. Those mistakes were taken advantage of by more savy players, that is what makes the game great, the fact that you are playing against others and that you must adopt very real procedures to succeed in Eve.

If you want to have a discussion then you should treat people on the other side of that argument with respect and consideration, even if you don't agree with them. Instead you use inflammatory words and bait.

This isn't a discussion and never has been, its you and a few others making baseless assertions about poor player retention and then presenting your "make Eve nice and easy" game design theories as a "solution."
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#143 - 2013-04-12 11:17:14 UTC
NARDAC wrote:
It amazes me how many people miss the forest for the trees.


I stuck with the game because I had real world co-workers that served as great mentors. Unless they already have friends in the game, where is the typical new player going to get that?


I was able to get into good fleets and trusted corps, because I had co-workers that had been playing for years and ran a trusted corp. Where is the typical new player going to get that?


And why is it so hard for a new player to get into a good PvP situation? Because of all the damage they can do with AWOXing, spying, thievery, scamming.

And not just "can do" massive damage. Happens all the time in this game.

And, it is not a rare occasion that you find a new player looking to do harm. It is well over half of people claiming to be new players, that are actually asshat alts looking to do harm.



Why the low retention rate? Because the new player experience really sucks, for someone that wants to PvP, but doesn't have contacts in the game.

It isn't as hard for a carebear to find a good corp looking to take them in, however.

Perhaps that explains the high % of carebears in the game. They have a higher retention rate because it is easier for them to find a carebear corp willing to take them in, then it is for a PvPer to find a good PvP corp willing to take them in.


You just need to find the right corps is the point.
Corps I've been in before were all different personalities and stuff.
Some corps are against Thievery and scamming completely, some are not.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#144 - 2013-04-12 11:30:15 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:

You bring up a very interesting point here.

So why can I not have one character/account who is a griefer/awoxer and another who is a carebear?

Why can I not enjoy all of the various aspects of the game through role playing various characters? Why must I instead be defined as a Player and railroaded into the "lowest common denominator"?

Why is it a problem when an existing player creates a new character to try out the darker side of EvE? That character will soon be dirty as can be. If anything, linking it to an 8 year old carebear could give it undue credibility. It's only a problem when such an alt gets biomassed and recreated. Fortunately that's not a problem either, as it's a banable offense to do so.


IF you really roleplay them separately, more power to you.

However, it's getting problematic, if the two roleplayed entities start interacting and benefitting from each other.

Frankly, IMO it even starts getting problematic when your griefer/awoxer starts getting a hard time from his victims or is less fun to play because he's uncovered and you switch to your carebear until the furor died down.

RubyPorto wrote:


So, what you're saying is that spies and most forms of spying should be eliminated?


ALT spying should be eliminated, IMO. (I know, it's unrealistic, but one should be allowed to dream.)

Here's why:

Normally you cannot see into the head of a spy you're dealing with, even if you established him yourself. He might have his own separate agenda or even be a double agent.
Unless you're extremely schizophrenic, you will usually know that your Alt spy is neither.

Again it basically boils down to being terrible roleplay.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#145 - 2013-04-12 11:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

(I know, it's unrealistic, but one should be allowed to dream.)


+1 Alts are not going anywhere. Read "Transhuman space" material. It has a very different idea of alts.
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#146 - 2013-04-12 11:33:47 UTC
I may have taken advantage of new players on trial, giving them support and ripping their soul out afterwards, promising showers of isk, only to toss them out when they started to grow hair on balls. Twisted But all of these players have become long time subscritionists and live in 0.0. All I did was take them roaming and showing them that they can be as bad as they want, and all CCP will do is pad them on their backs.Big smile New players don't need to be held by soft furry hands when they enter this game. They need to be shown no mercy, so they harden the f*ck up! How else would you train a dog, unless you want the dog to sh*t in your apartment?
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#147 - 2013-04-12 11:39:24 UTC
Athena Maldoran wrote:
How else would you train a dog, unless you want the dog to sh*t in your apartment?


Most commonly by establishing a relationship based on loyalty, trust and respect.

Those based on fear frequently end up with dogs being abandoned somewhere or shot by the authorities.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#148 - 2013-04-12 11:59:27 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

Unless you're extremely schizophrenic, you will usually know that your Alt spy is neither.


alts = goonspais.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Lennox Dantes
The Tyde
#149 - 2013-04-12 12:55:59 UTC
It is exactly people like this OP that CCP has started to cater to and are the reason Eve is being destroyed. The OP was just never happy with Eve... absolutely everything he got involved with failed. Well, sometime you need to consider if its everything around you, or just you.

Also, these are internet spaceships... they aren't real! They didn't cost you real money, and you don't really die or get injured. I am sorry that you had a rough life and because of that you are highly sensitive. But, for people like me that don't suffer from being an over-sensitive baby with emotional problems, Eve was the one game I could play that didn't tell me what to do.

Now, because of people like this OP, and because CCP has changed their stance on how they think Eve should be played (I swear they must have had a management change, because this "new eve" was never the intention), the purity of this once unique game is being washed away. More and more it is becoming like every other MMO on the market and more and more people will cancel their subs.

To the OP:

If you think CCP should monitor everything for you, and you should have a game where absolutely everything you do is consensual and you can have your cake and eat it too, please go play ANY OTHER MMO.... they are all like this. Please stop coming on this forum and crying. CCP never used to listed to you carebears, because they used to be smart. They used to know that no matter how much you heed the carebear tears there will always be more... but they changed. For what reason, I don't know... and now retards like you and finally getting their way and its ruining this game.

If you don't enjoy the freedoms of Eve... if you need things handed to you and policed for you... please DON'T play Eve. GO AWAY. STOP ruining a game I like, because you are an over-sensitive little *****. Life sucks for you, i'm sure.... Eve isn't going to fix it for you.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#150 - 2013-04-12 13:19:33 UTC
Lennox Dantes wrote:
It is exactly people like this OP that CCP has started to cater to and are the reason Eve is being destroyed. The OP was just never happy with Eve... absolutely everything he got involved with failed. Well, sometime you need to consider if its everything around you, or just you.


Where I come from you have Truth, then you have GOSPEL Truth. This here is Gospel Truth.

But it's easy to see why people do it. It's easier to blame outsider influences/other people than it is to take responsibility and risk hurting your own ego.

How many times have we seen a person commit a supremely avoidable mistake and, rather than learn from it and say "man, I was stupid that day", they come here and post about how some "unfair" part of the game needs to be nerfed....

.....it's probably why all of your ships now have safeties, 1000 years from now Game Archeologists are going to study the EVe Online Era and say that the inroduction of those safeties was the day CCP brought Child-proofing to a sandbocx MMO Cool

Quote:

Also, these are internet spaceships... they aren't real! They didn't cost you real money, and you don't really die or get injured. I am sorry that you had a rough life and because of that you are highly sensitive. But, for people like me that don't suffer from being an over-sensitive baby with emotional problems, Eve was the one game I could play that didn't tell me what to do.

Now, because of people like this OP, and because CCP has changed their stance on how they think Eve should be played (I swear they must have had a management change, because this "new eve" was never the intention), the purity of this once unique game is being washed away. More and more it is becoming like every other MMO on the market and more and more people will cancel their subs.

To the OP:

If you think CCP should monitor everything for you, and you should have a game where absolutely everything you do is consensual and you can have your cake and eat it too, please go play ANY OTHER MMO.... they are all like this. Please stop coming on this forum and crying. CCP never used to listed to you carebears, because they used to be smart. They used to know that no matter how much you heed the carebear tears there will always be more... but they changed. For what reason, I don't know... and now retards like you and finally getting their way and its ruining this game.

If you don't enjoy the freedoms of Eve... if you need things handed to you and policed for you... please DON'T play Eve. GO AWAY. STOP ruining a game I like, because you are an over-sensitive little *****. Life sucks for you, i'm sure.... Eve isn't going to fix it for you.


What you describe is the EVE paradox. For a game to be loved by the masses, it must make them FEEL good about themselves, make them feel like epic heroes. Niche games (ie GOOD games) say "screw you, you wanna be epic, do epic stuff, but we're not going to just hand it to you".

Problem is there aren't enough niche gamers to go around, so companies like CCP have to walk a stupidly insane tight-rope between the two worlds just to survive, and niche games get watered down so that enough weak-willed normal gamers will play and pay. No game like EVE can survive financially by staying an excellent small niche game, they have to mainstream a little.

And that sucks for folks like you and me.
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#151 - 2013-04-12 13:42:06 UTC
When I began to play Eve, it was with interest to high-sec, low-sec and null-sec. I thought I'd train my character a bit in high-sec, while finding out what the various groups in null-sec and low-sec are like. The more I learned about their antics and posts here and elsewhere, the more clear it came to me that it is similar bag of drama as in any other MMO out there (just like these boards). While the board drama is amusing to me, I have no more interest in in-game drama and thus my interest in low-sec and null-sec waned quickly. I could get my spaceship fix that way with least drama. Sure, some stuff i low-sec and null-sec still interest me, but unless people change (fat chance) probability of me trying it out is low to nil. At the moment my PvP interest is rather low, but if it gets higher, I'll likely seek it in other games, where it can be filled with less drama and more maturity.

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2013-04-12 14:06:26 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
When I began to play Eve, it was with interest to high-sec, low-sec and null-sec. I thought I'd train my character a bit in high-sec, while finding out what the various groups in null-sec and low-sec are like. The more I learned about their antics and posts here and elsewhere, the more clear it came to me that it is similar bag of drama as in any other MMO out there (just like these boards). While the board drama is amusing to me, I have no more interest in in-game drama and thus my interest in low-sec and null-sec waned quickly. I could get my spaceship fix that way with least drama. Sure, some stuff i low-sec and null-sec still interest me, but unless people change (fat chance) probability of me trying it out is low to nil. At the moment my PvP interest is rather low, but if it gets higher, I'll likely seek it in other games, where it can be filled with less drama and more maturity.


Can I infer that you are basing your whole opinion of all things low, null and PvP on hearsay then?

As a veteran player of various other online flavors of PvP games (counter-strike, chivalry, age of conan at launch etc) I find your claim that those communities are more mature amusing at best.

What separates this game from those are that in Eve, you do not respawn with all your equipment or the means to replace them within minutes. Me thinks this is the only reason why you are adverse to exposing yourself to danger here.
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#153 - 2013-04-12 14:14:39 UTC
Moneta Curran wrote:
Anna Karhunen wrote:
When I began to play Eve, it was with interest to high-sec, low-sec and null-sec. I thought I'd train my character a bit in high-sec, while finding out what the various groups in null-sec and low-sec are like. The more I learned about their antics and posts here and elsewhere, the more clear it came to me that it is similar bag of drama as in any other MMO out there (just like these boards). While the board drama is amusing to me, I have no more interest in in-game drama and thus my interest in low-sec and null-sec waned quickly. I could get my spaceship fix that way with least drama. Sure, some stuff i low-sec and null-sec still interest me, but unless people change (fat chance) probability of me trying it out is low to nil. At the moment my PvP interest is rather low, but if it gets higher, I'll likely seek it in other games, where it can be filled with less drama and more maturity.


Can I infer that you are basing your whole opinion of all things low, null and PvP on hearsay then?

As a veteran player of various other online flavors of PvP games (counter-strike, chivalry, age of conan at launch etc) I find your claim that those communities are more mature amusing at best.

What separates this game from those are that in Eve, you do not respawn with all your equipment or the means to replace them within minutes. Me thinks this is the only reason why you are adverse to exposing yourself to danger here.


The ones you mentioned, I found even less mature. But yeah, I do know at least one place where I can get mature PvP easily and quite drama free. No, not going to mention it here out of fear that some of the trolls here might migrate there. And I have no idea why it has remained so drama free. As for loss of items? No, not afraid of that. I have lost enough stuff here already to have learned not to care. In fact to me AoC's minuses upon death were more annoying, as instead of items, it gave penalty that was time dependent.

Drama and such, that is evident through stuff I have seen. Eve players are not special breed, which in the end did disappoint me (yeah, foolish me for believing such claims in the first place).

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2013-04-12 14:30:55 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
As for loss of items? No, not afraid of that. I have lost enough stuff here already to have learned not to care. In fact to me AoC's minuses upon death were more annoying, as instead of items, it gave penalty that was time dependent.
Drama and such, that is evident through stuff I have seen..


Then I don't understand. Drama usually originates from the loser of an engagement. If you win.. you can shrug it off and if you lose, you can demonstrate some restraint and not create it.

What is the drama you speak of, then?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#155 - 2013-04-12 14:37:40 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:

The ones you mentioned, I found even less mature..


Have you ever spent a second considering the idea that it's not "pvp drama" that is the problem, but rather your own (completely unreasonable) expectation that other people would conform to your expectation of "maturity" in a video game?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#156 - 2013-04-12 14:39:04 UTC
Moneta Curran wrote:
Anna Karhunen wrote:
As for loss of items? No, not afraid of that. I have lost enough stuff here already to have learned not to care. In fact to me AoC's minuses upon death were more annoying, as instead of items, it gave penalty that was time dependent.
Drama and such, that is evident through stuff I have seen..


Then I don't understand. Drama usually originates from the loser of an engagement. If you win.. you can shrug it off and if you lose, you can demonstrate some restraint and not create it.

What is the drama you speak of, then?

Any grr Goons thread/post.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#157 - 2013-04-12 14:50:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Moneta Curran wrote:
Anna Karhunen wrote:
As for loss of items? No, not afraid of that. I have lost enough stuff here already to have learned not to care. In fact to me AoC's minuses upon death were more annoying, as instead of items, it gave penalty that was time dependent.
Drama and such, that is evident through stuff I have seen..


Then I don't understand. Drama usually originates from the loser of an engagement. If you win.. you can shrug it off and if you lose, you can demonstrate some restraint and not create it.

What is the drama you speak of, then?

Any grr Goons thread/post.


I once ate a Blue Donut, was in the hospital for 2 weeks afterwards.
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#158 - 2013-04-12 14:56:51 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anna Karhunen wrote:

The ones you mentioned, I found even less mature..


Have you ever spent a second considering the idea that it's not "pvp drama" that is the problem, but rather your own (completely unreasonable) expectation that other people would conform to your expectation of "maturity" in a video game?




Well, got me there. Having had previous good experience with people who PvP'd, acted drama free in game and in guilds/corps/whatever... yeah. Stupid of me to hope to see similar thing here. As it is, I do enjoy PvE side of this game, but the various antics in game, videos, forums and all the stuff I have seen*, well, it has gotten my interest down regarding PvP. If it does go back up, I am more likely to go where I had fun before in PvP (especially as I like indirect fire, specifically mortars), despite the crappy PvE available there.

*Moneta Curran, baltec1: Not confined to Goons, as theirs is just slightly different from others. But yeah, low-seccers and null-seccers haven't exactly shown up in particularly good light. And as I am no spring chicken, I don't exactly place value in their antics.

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia
Virginia Virdana
RSM Inc
#159 - 2013-04-12 15:38:24 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
How else would you train a dog, unless you want the dog to sh*t in your apartment?


Most commonly by establishing a relationship based on loyalty, trust and respect.

Those based on fear frequently end up with dogs being abandoned somewhere or shot by the authorities.


No. Its about establishing good and early who is the Alpha leader and who is in the pack. A dog breeder once told me that almost every dog needs a good beating, but only once. Then you have established the heirachy. People alwyas forget that dogs are only a few days of missed meals away from being wolves...

Anyway, back on topic. I do feel for you OP, but pretty much everything I ever heard about eve was that it was cold and dark, and that you could do whatever you wanted. I liked the premise, and love the game. I only wish I had more time to devote to it.

The fatal error that you made was trying to project the moral boundaries of the real world (where we have laws and societal norms, and most people stick to them) with an internet spaceship game, where there are very few laws, the societal norm is you have stuff and I want it.

What that stuff is depends on the person. Its either your company, your time, your skills, your assests or your tears.
They say never come to a gunfight armed with a knife.   You appear to have come armed with a spoon.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#160 - 2013-04-12 15:47:15 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:


Well, got me there. Having had previous good experience with people who PvP'd, acted drama free in game and in guilds/corps/whatever... yeah. Stupid of me to hope to see similar thing here.


While you are probably being snark, yes, this is where you mess your self up. Did you do NO homework beofre downloading EVE online?

The people who made it are CRAZY and the game reflects that. Coming into EVE and expecting some pre-defined idea of "maturity" is like going to an ICP concert expecting to hear Beethoven's 5th......