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EVE's ever growing ISK inflation cost rates.

First post
Author
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2013-04-11 23:25:27 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
cytheras wrath wrote:
If you want prices to go down, make the crap yourself... the BPO's for all T1 things are still the same price as they were 5or 9 years ago ( not sure about 9 but anyways ).

mine, research, make your own ship. if you want it now, pay the isk... its about the same 'cost' of time invested to aquire the ship yourself via mining > manufacturing > riding then it is to mission > go to market > buy ship

L2EVE

Ok so I see you have no idea what inflation is.


Yes the isk sink that is BPOs is still in existence and they only recently got a small price hike.

Inflation is all about purchasing power, now items them selves such as ships will rise and fall on a supply and demand curve due to the amount of miners vs pvp players, but the amount of buying power people have for shooting a red x or the fact that the cost of those BPOs compared to buying power is now laughable.

So here is the easy version for you,big inflation = bad.



Here is the easy version for you! Inflation is not bad for miners (unless they are buying T2, then moon goo inflation sucks, but mineral inflation cancels this out).

Heck, I find inflation to be a good thing when I have to mine fewer hours to buy skill books, buy BPOs, rent NPC manufacturing and research slots, pay my corp office rents, etc.

Inflation may be bad for people shooting red +, but not so much for the people selling to the people shooting the red +. Maybe you should switch. It may even lower the inflation. Just don't mine the rocks in the systems where I likes to mine.
Frying Doom
#102 - 2013-04-12 00:06:22 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
cytheras wrath wrote:
If you want prices to go down, make the crap yourself... the BPO's for all T1 things are still the same price as they were 5or 9 years ago ( not sure about 9 but anyways ).

mine, research, make your own ship. if you want it now, pay the isk... its about the same 'cost' of time invested to aquire the ship yourself via mining > manufacturing > riding then it is to mission > go to market > buy ship

L2EVE

Ok so I see you have no idea what inflation is.


Yes the isk sink that is BPOs is still in existence and they only recently got a small price hike.

Inflation is all about purchasing power, now items them selves such as ships will rise and fall on a supply and demand curve due to the amount of miners vs pvp players, but the amount of buying power people have for shooting a red x or the fact that the cost of those BPOs compared to buying power is now laughable.

So here is the easy version for you,big inflation = bad.



Here is the easy version for you! Inflation is not bad for miners (unless they are buying T2, then moon goo inflation sucks, but mineral inflation cancels this out).

Heck, I find inflation to be a good thing when I have to mine fewer hours to buy skill books, buy BPOs, rent NPC manufacturing and research slots, pay my corp office rents, etc.

Inflation may be bad for people shooting red +, but not so much for the people selling to the people shooting the red +. Maybe you should switch. It may even lower the inflation. Just don't mine the rocks in the systems where I likes to mine.

I love how in these forums if you say, something is bad for a set of players, people automatically assume you are one of those players.

Now personally I wouldn't rat or run a mission, I can think of nothing more boring.

Now why inflation is bad for you.

Yes when you rent NPC slots for there laughable price, inflation is good for you but how about when you buy a BPO. Well say you want to buy a Battleship BPO and this equates to 100 hours mining for example, with inflation it means what took you 100 hours will take someone 95 hours or so next year (Assuming nothing else alters the supply/demand curve). So the value of your time purchasing that BPO is decreased and will continue to do so as time goes on.

How about office rent? Well as that is linked to the availability of offices and the amounts people are willing to pay, so as inflation decreases the worth of isk, prices will increase so you will pay more as time goes on so you are at no advantage here.

So your only real upside to inflation is the fixed NPC cost of slots, now this in itself is set completely wrong as it discourages players from setting out on their own and setting up their own, industry slots via a POS. In a game with a player driven economy it makes no sense to penalize players that have spent capital and taken a higher risk, as well as made them a larger member of the player community. Now this system might work if EvE was based on a socialist or communist structure, but eve is very much the capitalist system, so why do we allow a welfare system for those that choose not to work?

Increasing the cost of those slots will decrease inflation as well as give players the incentive to do other things in the game. Now a large number of players are happy sitting in a NPC corp and mining and manufacturing, I personally see no harm in this to the game as a whole, but I fell that those players should pay an equal share for the use of NPC facilities as a player that takes risk does, plus a small amount due to their risk mitigation.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Agnar Volta
Investtan Inc.
The Republic.
#103 - 2013-04-12 05:04:48 UTC
I don't see inflation in EVE as a major problem now, what I see is the distribution of the wealth being too strong towards the older players.

Noob income from lvl 1 missions, mining in ventures and salvaging is too low to maintain even cheap RVB PVP going in a sustainable way.

The end result is a rush for lvl 3 missions in Drakes and mining barges. You have to grow fast your skills in carebear activities and leave the important PVP skills behind as you can't afford lose 5 or 6 millions ISK a day in tackle frigates.

The end result is a long stretch of time doing a boring activities better done solo then doing some cheap PVP with friends which would be fun for everyone.

Nothing of this touch manufacturing that also need top skills to be competitive, which in a noob point of view takes ages just to be on par, not better, than establish players.

There are several ways to make ISK in EVE, but apart from trading in a trade hub, they all require what noobs don't have: skill points, advanced in game knowledge or good reliable friends. Not to mention that they are all boring, like chores that you have to do so you can enjoy the fun parts.

Odyssey might have a fix for that in the new exploration system, but only if in order to be competitive I won't need a tengu from the start.

Main problem is how to adjust that without stepping in the Malcani's law.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2013-04-12 09:39:49 UTC
inb4 goons wreck Jita again, and makes everything go **** expensive.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 

Frying Doom
#105 - 2013-04-12 10:03:57 UTC
Agnar Volta wrote:
I don't see inflation in EVE as a major problem now, what I see is the distribution of the wealth being too strong towards the older players.

Yes Comrade Lol

Agnar Volta wrote:
Noob income from lvl 1 missions, mining in ventures and salvaging is too low to maintain even cheap RVB PVP going in a sustainable way.

The end result is a rush for lvl 3 missions in Drakes and mining barges. You have to grow fast your skills in carebear activities and leave the important PVP skills behind as you can't afford lose 5 or 6 millions ISK a day in tackle frigates.

The end result is a long stretch of time doing a boring activities better done solo then doing some cheap PVP with friends which would be fun for everyone.

Nothing of this touch manufacturing that also need top skills to be competitive, which in a noob point of view takes ages just to be on par, not better, than establish players.

There are several ways to make ISK in EVE, but apart from trading in a trade hub, they all require what noobs don't have: skill points, advanced in game knowledge or good reliable friends. Not to mention that they are all boring, like chores that you have to do so you can enjoy the fun parts.

Odyssey might have a fix for that in the new exploration system, but only if in order to be competitive I won't need a tengu from the start.

Main problem is how to adjust that without stepping in the Malcani's law.

I would like to see the employment pathway for a manufacturer to be even longer, by making POS competitive in the market place, which would also allow areas other than Hi-sec to become more competitive.

But as to Noobs pvping, well that was one of the things I found even with experienced players, if you dont have the financial baking of your corp, PvP players are quiet poor people.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#106 - 2013-04-12 10:04:34 UTC
culo duro wrote:
inb4 goons wreck Jita again, and makes everything go **** expensive.

I believe that is what economists refer to as seasonally adjusted Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#107 - 2013-04-12 11:55:51 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
culo duro wrote:
inb4 goons wreck Jita again, and makes everything go **** expensive.

I believe that is what economists refer to as seasonally adjusted Lol

I think it's what economists call “stop sniffing glue, you're hallucinating”.
Frying Doom
#108 - 2013-04-12 13:12:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
culo duro wrote:
inb4 goons wreck Jita again, and makes everything go **** expensive.

I believe that is what economists refer to as seasonally adjusted Lol

I think it's what economists call “stop sniffing glue, you're hallucinating”.

If you believe an economist would say that, you must not read many economic forecasts Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2013-04-12 13:22:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
culo duro wrote:
inb4 goons wreck Jita again, and makes everything go **** expensive.

I believe that is what economists refer to as seasonally adjusted Lol

I think it's what economists call “stop sniffing glue, you're hallucinating”.


Pretty sure the only economists that know anything are the ones sniffing glue.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#110 - 2013-04-12 13:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
So what exactly do you want us to blow up/distroy now?
flakeys
Doomheim
#111 - 2013-04-12 14:51:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
So what exactly do you want us to blow up/distroy now?



Your Alliance ...
Your blue list ....
Your tech moons ....


So much to choose from ...... let's start small and blow up yourself through the biomass option shall we ?

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Tub Chil
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#112 - 2013-04-12 14:56:36 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Three words:

Player Driven Economy.


3 words:
remove drone poo

it's not even funny when people talk about eve like it is self sustained system, without involvement from game developers
How can someone not realize that game devs have TOOLS to change prices, and they will use them as they see fit.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#113 - 2013-04-12 14:56:38 UTC
Ken 1138 wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Three words:

Player Driven Economy.



Yes but try buying a 150-300 mil ship unfitted no less, when you're a new player who doesn't know how to make any ISK. I've explained this to new players I've met and was almost apologetic about the high costs. I think alot of T1 ships have very expensive to very ridiculous costs.

Why should a new player buy a 150-300mio ship?

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#114 - 2013-04-12 15:02:22 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Now while to High an inflation rate is a bed thing and an isk sink would be good, there is probably a reason why inflation has been allowed to remain this high for this long.

Bounties.

Yep the number 1 isk faucet, is also a reason why it has been left for so so long, as you kill a red x, you get a payout but that payout is fixed, so the longer it is left the less those payout are actually worth.

But personally I feel we have waited long enough and would like to see the inflation rate lowered via a large isk sink. Namely the increase of costs to NPC facilities.

Lets face it if it continues much longer, miners and manufacturers will be fine but anyone collecting bounties or selling items on an NPC buy order will start to feel the pinch, if they are not already doing so. Considering what you can buy for killing a red cross is so much less now than it was 2 years ago.


It would be nice to have some sort of isk sink to go along with the isk faucet of bounties. L4's have LP rewards to act as an isk sink - but straight ratting doesn't have anything comparable.

Maybe cut down the amount of bounty paid and add faction LP to cover the difference. Not an inflation solution, but an inflation slower-downer.

I am not an alt of Chribba.

Darvaleth Sigma
Imperial Security Hegemony
#115 - 2013-04-12 15:13:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Darvaleth Sigma
Surely the price of minerals comes down to how much Miners think their time is worth...? It's just labour costs, the minerals don't cost anything to extract (discounting set-up price for the ship/fit and skills etc.). If people wanted to stop inflation, surely the best way would not be to have CCP externally impose something, but rather have the Player-Driven-Economy sort it by itself. A group of more selfless miners selling for lower than everyone else, so that other miners similarly have to reduce their prices to not lose out?

EDIT: As for bounties, if you changed it so the bounty payout is much less but the drops are much better, wouldn't that go some way to countering inflation...? Instead of generating free money it generates a sellable item.

Give a man a match and you warm him for a day.

Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life!

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#116 - 2013-04-12 15:22:14 UTC
Make faction ammo better in every way than T2

make purchase of faction ammo require T2 ammo insetad of T1

Grats, you jsut created an isk sink without making T2 production useless.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2013-04-12 15:44:18 UTC
So, long as cruisers and frigs stay below 20m ships are cheap, now, we COULD use some more low sec/null sec base level none isk income, and more isk sinks, aka a gate tax or ship up keep for none packaged ships
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-04-12 16:15:00 UTC
Darvaleth Sigma wrote:
Surely the price of minerals comes down to how much Miners think their time is worth...? It's just labour costs, the minerals don't cost anything to extract (discounting set-up price for the ship/fit and skills etc.). If people wanted to stop inflation, surely the best way would not be to have CCP externally impose something, but rather have the Player-Driven-Economy sort it by itself. A group of more selfless miners selling for lower than everyone else, so that other miners similarly have to reduce their prices to not lose out?

EDIT: As for bounties, if you changed it so the bounty payout is much less but the drops are much better, wouldn't that go some way to countering inflation...? Instead of generating free money it generates a sellable item.


Somewhat true but you have "paths of least resistance" that are followed based upon the terrain.

Think of it more like driving a car - where the road goes, most drive and in the mountains, few will try and drive 'cross-country' with cliffs and towering walls. EVE player's income and expense areas are very much determined by game mechanics.

So yes on the player-driven side but the layout chosen for the paths makes a huge difference for how it can and does work.

"faucets" vs "wealth-transfer" with "sinks" is commonly explained and the balance between these areas is as much how the economy here progresses as anything else.

It's something handy to keep in mind with respect to such discussions. A broader view vs simply looking at it as "players". There are things CCP can do, mechanics wise, to help it out.
Igor Slovensky
Doomheim
#119 - 2013-04-16 03:19:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Igor Slovensky
ISD Gallifreyan wrote:
CCP talked last year about being concerned with inflation, however.

Tons of new isk is being generatrd through NPC bounties and mission rewards.
There are not enough isk sinks in the game to combat this.

When your ship explodes, the only isk to leave the game is the isk paid for the manufacturing slot (which is negligible)

Isk sinks currently include War dec costs, expired insurace fees, broker fees, market taxes (not corp tax), office rental, ship repair, locator agents. Etc.

The only way to combat inflation in eve is to increase these sinks or come up with new ones.



2 phrases:

1.) Sandbox
2.) Player driven (controlled)

CCP should not feel the need to do anything but stay out of the way and let the players handle ( or not ) inflation. To do otherwise is to violate the principle of the sandbox and a player controlled economy.

Creating artificial isk sinks is both unnecessary and a violation of the sandbox promise by CCP, by creating isk sinks and the like CCP is deliberately attempting to control what is supposed to be a player driven marketplace.

Just my opinion feel free to have your own. Smile
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#120 - 2013-04-16 03:20:33 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Three words:

Player Driven Economy.


Three letters and two words:

CCP sells Plex.