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[PYRE] Policy Update for CEWPA theater conflict

Author
Zakar Shazih
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-04-11 11:53:08 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
my utmost gratitude to them for taking this vital step in what may lead to peace between the State and Federation.


You are deluded if you think anything Pyre Falcon Defence Combine do will have an effect on State and Federation political status.

Power is not something that is granted - it is something to be taken. Your future awaits....................................join channel "Sani Sabik"

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#22 - 2013-04-11 12:14:52 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
This is disappointing, mister Tuulinen. I had hoped the State would have its resolve strengthened after losing Caldari Prime and the defense fleet. Instead, the events seem to have only encouraged the State to back down.

The DMZ agreement was only an appeasement solution to discourage State retribution. Unfortunately, it seems to be working.


It is amazing to me how the desire to see an actual resolution and not simply a temporary satiation is seen as "backing down," it further amazes me how anyone could think a renewed push to repeat the same mistakes of the past is a good idea.



The "temporary satiation" was not a proper solution either. Handing Luminaire back to the Federation after it had been secured was a mistake. The State focused on too narrow a goal. It should have conquered Luminaire and every system between it and the State.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Some might say the hallmark of truly enlightened leadership is the ability to achieve an objective without ever having to unsheathe the blade. Not every solution to a problem requires the spilling of blood and the raising of the black banners.

I can understand the political and military concerns of the Empire well -- the possibility of the Federation Navy fortifying the Solitude-Kador corridors in the event of detente with the State is a legitimate cause for alarm given potential plans for a renewed Reclaiming by Empress Sarum into Republic territories.

However, the Caldari State through the CEP will act according its own interests, not that of the Empire.


I am not speaking of the interests of the Empire. Though I will be very upset if the State chooses to negotiate a separate peace and leave its allies to stand on their own, my post was about the State, not the Empire.

An objective wasn't achieved. The State does not have sole sovereign control over Caldari Prime. Why choose to settle for less? Why choose to ignore the sacrifices made by the hundreds of thousands of crew who fought to secure the planet from the Federation?

I do not understand why the State is so easily appeased.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-04-11 12:15:27 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
War have no mercy for weak-willed.
One shouldn't make a step if can't follow road to the whole end.


Then we must be walking different paths, for I walk down the course defending the territorial integrity of the State, the independence and liberty of its citizens, the freedom of its corporate enterprises, the Lawful Authority of the Chief Executive Panel, and the future of my company and its staff that I secure their prosperity through the merits of my leadership defined with professionalism, intelligence and integrity.

I certainly have no fears to be at anyone's mercy for I have the strength of my own convictions.

Zakar Shazih wrote:
You are deluded if you think anything Pyre Falcon Defence Combine do will have an effect on State and Federation political status.


Perhaps so, but nowhere has it been implied that in providing a public dissemination of corporate policies as deemed necessary and relevant as per legal obligations that it would, for indeed State and Federal foreign policy will be decided and set by respective government bodies.

I, at least, don't suffer from those particular afflictions of delusions of grandeur that so besets the particular followers of the religious occult.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-04-11 12:48:42 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
The "temporary satiation" was not a proper solution either. Handing Luminaire back to the Federation after it had been secured was a mistake. The State focused on too narrow a goal. It should have conquered Luminaire and every system between it and the State.


The State isn't interested in conquest and it's not interested in destroying the Federation, it's interested in autonomy and independence from it. Furthermore, your approach would have resulted in expansion beyond what our military assets could have supported at the time, leaving us spread thin and vulnerable. I would have thought the Empire would have learned that lesson by now, perhaps not.

Samira Kernher wrote:
An objective wasn't achieved. The State does not have sole sovereign control over Caldari Prime. Why choose to settle for less? Why choose to ignore the sacrifices made by the hundreds of thousands of crew who fought to secure the planet from the Federation?


What you see as ignoring those sacrifices, we perceive as honoring them by preventing the necessity for more. A sacrifice made is honored when it is weighed and learned from, not when it is used as justification for further sacrifice. We honor Admiral Tovil-Toba not by screaming the name and charging blindly into battle but by remembering the purpose of the sacrifice, the need to save lives and preserve our heritage. We honor the sacrifices of those fighting to secure the planet by remembering what is important: our ability to live, develop and access the planet they fought for.

You do not understand our way of thinking, I can forgive you for this. Don't use your ignorance to judge us and tell us how we should be proceeding.

Samira Kernher wrote:
I do not understand why the State is so easily appeased.


I don't understand why the Empire refuses to bring itself out of the proverbial dark ages, guided by blind zealotry and motivated by racially-charged supremacy hidden under the guise of a socially controlling religious system; but you don't see me telling the Empire how it should be conducting itself. Nor do you see the State telling the Empire how it should be proceeding.

You call it appeasement, we call it wisdom. Perhaps asking before judging would be the more prudent course of action.

~Malcolm Khross

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#25 - 2013-04-11 12:55:05 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
This is disappointing, mister Tuulinen. I had hoped the State would have its resolve strengthened after losing Caldari Prime and the defense fleet. Instead, the events seem to have only encouraged the State to back down.

The DMZ agreement was only an appeasement solution to discourage State retribution. Unfortunately, it seems to be working.


It is amazing to me how the desire to see an actual resolution and not simply a temporary satiation is seen as "backing down," it further amazes me how anyone could think a renewed push to repeat the same mistakes of the past is a good idea.



The "temporary satiation" was not a proper solution either. Handing Luminaire back to the Federation after it had been secured was a mistake. The State focused on too narrow a goal. It should have conquered Luminaire and every system between it and the State.


Now you're starting to sound like Diana Kim, you talk in fantasies with no sense of realism to such goals.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-04-11 13:04:56 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
The "temporary satiation" was not a proper solution either. Handing Luminaire back to the Federation after it had been secured was a mistake. The State focused on too narrow a goal. It should have conquered Luminaire and every system between it and the State.

It amazes me how there are people stupid enough to think that this was either possible or desirable.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#27 - 2013-04-11 13:20:23 UTC
Girl sounds like a typical rock-cruncher to me. Neither knows much about nor appreciates Caldari Prime until it becomes convenient to do so and then they're an overnight military expert.

Cool heads, Pilot Khross. Don't let individuals like the Miss here incite you so. The Empire has many honorable men and women who refrain from such ignorance.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-04-11 13:37:32 UTC
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:

Cool heads, Pilot Khross. Don't let individuals like the Miss here incite you so. The Empire has many honorable men and women who refrain from such ignorance.


Wise advice.

I know many Imperial loyalists whom I have a great deal of respect for and who conduct themselves with honor and wisdom.

My remarks regarding the Empire were meant to serve as an example to Kernher of how her remarks regarding the State are viewed in a context she could better understand.

Regardless, perhaps they were ill-thought. I will take your advice.

~Malcolm Khross

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#29 - 2013-04-12 06:26:45 UTC
Zakar Shazih wrote:


You are deluded if you think anything Pyre Falcon Defence Combine do will have an effect on State and Federation political status.


I think you do this proposal a disservice. Even in the State, big things can have small beginnings. Tibus Heth's rise to power is an example, but hardly the only one. To be sure, though, Pyre Falcon Defense Combine would not be considered by most to be a major player within the State or among Caldari Militia corporations, skilled and vocal as they may be. It troubles me that none of the larger State Protectorate aligned entities have shown any notice to this worthy gesture.

Malcolm Kross wrote:

The State isn't interested in conquest and it's not interested in destroying the Federation, it's interested in autonomy and independence from it.


I must say, your interpretation of State interests seems to ignore much of what has transpired in recent history. Only a few short years ago the State Protectorate occupied every Gallente system in the Placid, Verge Vendor, and Essence Warzone. This was no symbolic move to prove the might of Caldari arms, it was a concerted effort to claim and consolidate territory; complete with auctions of development rights for the systems in question. Sounds quite a bit like conquest to me.

Perhaps most of the power brokers within the State have moved on from the desire to conquer and impose dominion over Federation territories, but there are certainly many still who have not. I, for one, believe very strongly that it has only been through repeated military setbacks than the Caldari have arrived anywhere near the position you express.

It bears mentioning that from the perspective of many in the Federation, the State has shown itself absolutely to be interested in conquest and the destruction of the Federation. Even unto the destruction to the Shigeru most Caldari "loyalists" were perfectly willing to invoke the spectre of the utter destruction of Gallente Prime if any attempt was made to remove the Caldari Titan from our home system.

The reconquest of "Home" served neither the furtherance of "independence" nor "autonomy" for those who did the conquering. In that campaign the Federation saw a people who already had their independence and autonomy go to war for a Nationalist symbol. In the conquest of Federal Union systems throughout Placid, Essence and Verge Vendor they saw a nation bent on expansion to serve the interests of ruthless Corporatism. In the presence of the Shigeru they saw a threat from a leader bent on hateful vengeance against them simply for their Gallente birth.

You probably disagree with my perspective on these events, but they are by nature mine to perceive. Many of my countrymen share my viewpoint. It would behoove to understand this if you seek peace.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2013-04-12 07:08:35 UTC
Obviously I disagree. Personally I've always seen the State as a long-suffering neighbour being constantly meddled with.

That said, if the State claims to want only peace to develop internally and the Federation claims to only want peace to foster liberty and growth - it seems we all need to do a bit of digging to work out why we constantly seem to be in each other's faces.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-04-12 08:06:01 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

... the independence and liberty of its citizens, the freedom of...

If you tell us that you pursue interests of the State, then why does your speech have so strong gallentean stench,... haani... ?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-04-12 09:38:38 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

... the independence and liberty of its citizens, the freedom of...

If you tell us that you pursue interests of the State, then why does your speech have so strong gallentean stench,... haani... ?


Then if you'd prefer me treat you like a Provist squaddie Kim-haani, then I shall do so, and simply state I do not have to be lectured on the performance and execution of my duties to the State by a half-breed mongrel Saisio dog. My ancestors at least did in fact fight, die and bleed to ensure the independence, liberty and freedoms of the Caldari people, our culture, our corporations, our colonies and our State from the oppression of foreign dominance and intrusion.

Now, the next time you might want to attempt to offend me then at least extend me the honour and courtesy I have shown to you by growing a spine and doing so clearly and directly instead of taking my words out context in a pitiable attempt at aspersion. For I am still quite actively engaged in defending the citizens of the State and its territorial integrity against continued FDU aggression and occupation so I currently have neither the time nor the inclination to entertain your particular brand of jingoistic, passive-aggressive bullshit.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-04-12 10:14:16 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:


I must say, your interpretation of State interests seems to ignore much of what has transpired in recent history. Only a few short years ago the State Protectorate occupied every Gallente system in the Placid, Verge Vendor, and Essence Warzone. This was no symbolic move to prove the might of Caldari arms, it was a concerted effort to claim and consolidate territory; complete with auctions of development rights for the systems in question. Sounds quite a bit like conquest to me.


This is rich coming from the same pilot who continually attests to the individual operation of capsuleers apart from their sovereign governments. Yes, the State Protectorate, a capsuleer militia, engages in conquest over Federal territory. The Caldari State has never formally declared an intention to do so.

Rinai Vero wrote:
I, for one, believe very strongly that it has only been through repeated military setbacks than the Caldari have arrived anywhere near the position you express.


Your personal beliefs are irrelevant to facts, no matter how strongly you believe them.

Rinai Vero wrote:
It bears mentioning that from the perspective of many in the Federation, the State has shown itself absolutely to be interested in conquest and the destruction of the Federation. Even unto the destruction to the Shigeru most Caldari "loyalists" were perfectly willing to invoke the spectre of the utter destruction of Gallente Prime if any attempt was made to remove the Caldari Titan from our home system.


Yet many more were just as appalled that such a course of action was even considered or were you intentionally ignoring those rather public testaments?

Rinai Vero wrote:
You probably disagree with my perspective on these events, but they are by nature mine to perceive. Many of my countrymen share my viewpoint. It would behoove to understand this if you seek peace.


I understand full well your viewpoint.

~Malcolm Khross

Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2013-04-12 11:05:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aelisha
Although I am pleased to see Rinai's perspective meshing with that of my PYRE friends, I must urge both sides to place pressure on their respective employers.

The CEWPA being what it is, declarations such as these only state a political and social stance. They do not enforce it, they do not develop your cause. This is a marketing tool and I must impress upon you the importance of backing this action up with petitions to your respective authorities. The militias are still going to employ those who seek nothing but the conquest of all that stands before them - even your own organisation, Rinai Vero, has problems in that your size of membership prevents effective policing of breaches in the concessions your leaders have put in place.

Statements like these bring a viewpoint to light, act upon them politically through communication with your peers and betters in your respective societies before it just turns into a beacon of reason, around which every other militia capsuleer will move to continue their pillaging of low-security colonies.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-04-12 11:18:44 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

... the independence and liberty of its citizens, the freedom of...

If you tell us that you pursue interests of the State, then why does your speech have so strong gallentean stench,... haani... ?


Then if you'd prefer me treat you like a Provist squaddie Kim-haani, then I shall do so, and simply state I do not have to be lectured on the performance and execution of my duties to the State by a half-breed mongrel Saisio dog. My ancestors at least did in fact fight, die and bleed to ensure the independence, liberty and freedoms of the Caldari people, our culture, our corporations, our colonies and our State from the oppression of foreign dominance and intrusion.

Now, the next time you might want to attempt to offend me then at least extend me the honour and courtesy I have shown to you by growing a spine and doing so clearly and directly instead of taking my words out context in a pitiable attempt at aspersion. For I am still quite actively engaged in defending the citizens of the State and its territorial integrity against continued FDU aggression and occupation so I currently have neither the time nor the inclination to entertain your particular brand of jingoistic, passive-aggressive bullshit.

You... you...
Offend you? Really? I will *censored* offend you if you *censored* want it. I will *censored* your *censored* butt and drag your *censored* *censored* through main *censored* station corridor, and then i will *censored* make you *censored* eat your *censored* pureblood pedigree!
That's how I will offend you!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-04-12 11:48:47 UTC
Classy, as ever, Kim-haani.
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#37 - 2013-04-12 12:33:35 UTC
Gotta admit, even from here I'm almost a little bit offended (if I'm even capable of such an emotion) and it isn't even my neck on the line here.

My mother was half-Achuran, my father half-Khanid. An unusual pedigree for sure but I still consider myself Civire. Through and through.

Still, testament to the brutality of a beat-down when even random observes are cringing a bit. I'm a little impressed.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#38 - 2013-04-12 14:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Then if you'd prefer me treat you like a Provist squaddie Kim-haani, then I shall do so, and simply state I do not have to be lectured on the performance and execution of my duties to the State by a half-breed mongrel Saisio dog. My ancestors at least did in fact fight, die and bleed to ensure the independence, liberty and freedoms of the Caldari people, our culture, our corporations, our colonies and our State from the oppression of foreign dominance and intrusion.


"Saisio dog"? I understand that you are likely speaking in anger, and do not intend to offer any defense of Kim-haani's attitude... But I would, with all due respect, urge you to be a little more tactful, Gesakaarin-haani.

While it is true our forebears contributed little to the founding of the State, the Achura people bleed every day in a war fought mainly over a world our distant ancestors never even knew.

And unless I am quite mistaken, ones predecessors are to be revered, not used as a qualification of merit.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#39 - 2013-04-12 14:22:26 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Obviously I disagree. Personally I've always seen the State as a long-suffering neighbour being constantly meddled with.

That said, if the State claims to want only peace to develop internally and the Federation claims to only want peace to foster liberty and growth - it seems we all need to do a bit of digging to work out why we constantly seem to be in each other's faces.


That was always the problem. Despite all the high ideals of liberty, the federation seems remarkably discontent with allowing other entities to make their own domestic choices unless they're mirroring their model. If that patronizing attitude would be gone there clearly would be a possibility for a less tense coexistance along the borders.

Until then we will do what is necessary, and this will go beyond the CEWPMA-mandate if the federation, federal loyalists or lickspittles can not keep themselves out of domestic caldari affairs.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#40 - 2013-04-12 15:11:21 UTC
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

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