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Concerned about scanning changes in Odyssey: Better speak up now
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Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1 - 2013-04-12 08:41:40 UTC
Odyssey is advertised with a 're-imagined scanning system' as one of the main features. Scanning is one of my primary activities, so I am a little excited but mostly worried. The current system is one of the best-working systems in this game so I think there is much to lose and little to gain.

What we know so far is that there will be new modules: They go into a mid slot and improve scan time, pinpointing and scan strength just like the skills do. Using these modules will make newbie chars easily as good at scanning as vets are now (character skill-wise, that is). Vets can use them too to become even faster, so I don't really object.

Skill changes work out in a way that makes no difference to a maxed-out character. Not sure why they change this at all then but whatever.

I'm pretty sure however that this is not what is meant with a "re-imagined scanning system"... more likely there is a fundamental change in scanning mechanics being worked on right now.

I ask CCP to gather feedback on such changes early and not throw it at us at or shortly before release when it's basically set in stone.

And please keep this fundamental principle as your guideline in whatever you do: Skilled, practiced and dedicated scanners should always be able to get a significant advantage over casual, lazy or simply inept scanners. Don't water down the system in a way that makes everyone equally fast at it.

.
Space Wanderer
#2 - 2013-04-12 11:55:57 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
I ask CCP to gather feedback on such changes early and not throw it at us at or shortly before release when it's basically set in stone.


On the other hand the early feedback may be misleading. There is nothing wrong with a motivated feedback (for instance "scanning is too difficult because of XXX") because it might point out something that the devs have somehow overlooked. But I remember people crying "scanning is too difficult" in beta and early apocrypha. THAT feedback was completely foobar...


Terrorfrodo wrote:
And please keep this fundamental principle as your guideline in whatever you do: Skilled, practiced and dedicated scanners should always be able to get a significant advantage over casual, lazy or simply inept scanners. Don't water down the system in a way that makes everyone equally fast at it.


I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Also, it is important to avoid time sinks like the pre-apochrypha system. The system should require active participation of the player.

And, this is only my personal opinion, which however has not changed since beta-apochrypha: scanning nowadays is too easy. There is no uncertainty, it is only a process to follow: drop probes, put them in formation, choose a signature, restrict formation, scan, restrict formation, scan, until the sig is found. It should have more unexpected or ambigous events, which should reward knowledge of the system and intution more than it does now.
Shugga Ditz
Chaos Army
#3 - 2013-04-12 12:54:08 UTC
I know I'm in the minority but I loved the pre-apocrypha system. Scanning out a system required an evening of preparation and effort. Finding something juicy was a thrill. You also had the time to deal with whatever you found, because it would take people as long as it took you to hunt down the sig. The time sink could be heavily mitigated by an investment in skills and equipment, but scanning something/someone down was still something that took time and skill. Most people didn't know how to do it at all, let alone do it well.

Scanning now is, as already mentioned, too simple, too predictable and above all, **too fast**.

The mechanics for "ship scanning" and "content scanning" should be decoupled so that they can be independently developed without and awesome solution for one aspect of the game creating a flaw in the other. Scanning for PVE content should take hours of effort for the best sites out there, and the rewards for the best sites should be immense to compensate. Exploration should be like playing the lottery - barren months, followed by big wins that people post about on the forums. It should not be about a predictable income per hour as it (pretty much) is now. Running sigs in 0.0 is almost as boring and predictable as running the belts or anoms - and it never used to be.
Kali Omega
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#4 - 2013-04-12 13:00:27 UTC
+1

Love the current scaning system (and the time it takes to train the skills properly). Scaning is one system that should not be touched...

It's a system that anyone can do well enough, but a system that hard to master (like eve should be)

In short...don't mess with something that isn't broken...
Eitak Utrigas
Hydraxis Industries
#5 - 2013-04-12 13:04:58 UTC
Would it totally break the system if you had scanner probes that were tailored to the signature (Grav, Ladar, Mag etc). They could provide a significant boost over generic ones (which will still be available) and assist the scanner in filtering out the crap sites that they are not interested in?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#6 - 2013-04-12 13:05:39 UTC
Shugga Ditz wrote:
I know I'm in the minority but I loved the pre-apocrypha system. Scanning out a system required an evening of preparation and effort. Finding something juicy was a thrill. You also had the time to deal with whatever you found, because it would take people as long as it took you to hunt down the sig. The time sink could be heavily mitigated by an investment in skills and equipment, but scanning something/someone down was still something that took time and skill. Most people didn't know how to do it at all, let alone do it well.

Scanning now is, as already mentioned, too simple, too predictable and above all, **too fast**.

The mechanics for "ship scanning" and "content scanning" should be decoupled so that they can be independently developed without and awesome solution for one aspect of the game creating a flaw in the other. Scanning for PVE content should take hours of effort for the best sites out there, and the rewards for the best sites should be immense to compensate. Exploration should be like playing the lottery - barren months, followed by big wins that people post about on the forums. It should not be about a predictable income per hour as it (pretty much) is now. Running sigs in 0.0 is almost as boring and predictable as running the belts or anoms - and it never used to be.


A range of "content scanning" with some "juice" stuff that takes preparation to find and gives people who put effort in time to exploit isn't a bad idea as an additional level of content along with the easier ship/general content scanning. Having to spend an entire evening just to scan down a couple of wormholes to find your way around wormhole space would kill w-space activity.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-04-12 13:12:23 UTC
Shugga Ditz wrote:
I know I'm in the minority but I loved the pre-apocrypha system. Scanning out a system required an evening of preparation and effort. Finding something juicy was a thrill. You also had the time to deal with whatever you found, because it would take people as long as it took you to hunt down the sig. The time sink could be heavily mitigated by an investment in skills and equipment, but scanning something/someone down was still something that took time and skill. Most people didn't know how to do it at all, let alone do it well.

Scanning now is, as already mentioned, too simple, too predictable and above all, **too fast**.

The mechanics for "ship scanning" and "content scanning" should be decoupled so that they can be independently developed without and awesome solution for one aspect of the game creating a flaw in the other. Scanning for PVE content should take hours of effort for the best sites out there, and the rewards for the best sites should be immense to compensate. Exploration should be like playing the lottery - barren months, followed by big wins that people post about on the forums. It should not be about a predictable income per hour as it (pretty much) is now. Running sigs in 0.0 is almost as boring and predictable as running the belts or anoms - and it never used to be.



Oh god, the old probing days *shudder*




Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#8 - 2013-04-12 13:25:31 UTC
Shugga Ditz wrote:
~stuff~

Your post is quite illuminating because it makes clear how different scanning and exploration is for different people. I joined shortly after Apocrypha so I didn't know the old system at all.

People like you who live in k-space and do exploration for fun (and to hit the jackpot) are entirely different from w-space residents who need to scan often and fast to even move around systems. Your preferred system would instantly kill w-space. I can see however that it might be fun for new exploration PvE.

Maybe CCP plans to actually bring a variation of the old system back for special new sites, without killing the current system for wormholes and existing sites, decoupling both. That could make for cool new content and would mostly appease my concerns...

.
Space Wanderer
#9 - 2013-04-12 13:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Shugga Ditz wrote:
Scanning out a system required an evening of preparation and effort. Finding something juicy was a thrill.


I tend to agree with you here. I don't think that time sink is the way to go, but it is true that that specific aspect of the pre-apoc system was a valid one. On the other hand, I still think that time sinks are a waste of paid gameplay time. Besides also the old system required a fixed process, just a slower one. While it still required some knowledge and ability it still was mostly tedious, without many unexpected issues. I would like an engaging system, but which had more unexpected events in it, thus requirng people to understand what's going on and act accordingly. Easiest said than done, I know. Big smile

Anyway in essence, make scanning harder, but keep it engaging.
Space Wanderer
#10 - 2013-04-12 13:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Shugga Ditz wrote:
~stuff~

Maybe CCP plans to actually bring a variation of the old system back for special new sites, without killing the current system for wormholes and existing sites, decoupling both. That could make for cool new content and would mostly appease my concerns...


As I mentioned in another thread, it could be that this "discovery scanner" might be an addition and not a change. But a confirmation from devs would be welcome.
okst666
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-04-14 22:03:40 UTC
A little bit of automation would be great.

The manual scanning is not "difficult" - its "uncomfortable". The UI came right from stoneage and the technology behind it right from hell.

Eve is 20000 years in the future and nobody came up with the Idea to automate the scanning procedure?

To Kill a person, all it needs is 3 clicks. To scan a ******* ladar site it takes around 2000 clicks and up to 10 Minutes...at least for me.

A "push button, receive bacon" - mechanism is not what I want, but I would like a time based automatism.
Imagine a mechanism where you drop your probes and tell them to come back with the results in 30 Minutes...and they scan automatically and come back with the result when the timer is up.
I could set them to 1 hour and might get more results (by chance) or not.

Maybe have set them up with a filter, to scan only for valuable sites... or only wormholes...maybe set them to "scan for highsec" and after 2 hours they come back with a perfectly scanned chain. Something that an experience scanner would achieve within 30 Minutes. (Would be awesome if the returned probe would drop a can with bookmarks!)

To be clear - a dedicated scanner should have the advantage. But for corps that do not have a dedicated scanner at hand because of afk, not online, lack of skills (see above), just not being in the mood to scan (a very major problem) there should be a passive scanning mechanism in the game.

[X] < Nail here for new monitor
Space Wanderer
#12 - 2013-04-14 22:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
okst666 wrote:
A "push button, receive bacon" - mechanism is not what I want, but I would like a time based automatism.
Imagine a mechanism where you drop your probes and tell them to come back with the results in 30 Minutes...and they scan automatically and come back with the result when the timer is up.
I could set them to 1 hour and might get more results (by chance) or not.


You see, this is exactly the reason why I distrust statements like "get the feedback before the system is implemented". I don't need to "imagine" such a mechanism. What you are asking for is basically the old scanning mechanism, which is widely believed to be a not-so-good system, and which apochrypha, with all its limits, vastly improved. (well, the old system had its advantages too, i read so many books while waiting for scan results... Big smile)

Mind you, I think I might agree with your first statement "Eve is 20000 years in the future and nobody came up with the Idea to automate the scanning procedure". The issue with scanning is not that it is not automated, rather that it is a "procedure", thus something that could be easily automated. Now if CCP can create a scanning system that would bring scanning to the status of "art", or if you prefer to something as variable as PVP, they might have something really good on their hands.
okst666
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-04-14 22:58:13 UTC  |  Edited by: okst666
Quote:


You see, this is exactly the reason why I distrust statements like "get the feedback before the system is implemented". I don't need to "imagine" such a mechanism. What you are asking for is basically the old scanning mechanism, which is widely believed to be a not-so-good system, and which apochrypha, with all its limits, vastly improved. (well, the old system had its advantages too, i read so many books while waiting for scan results... Big smile)


[Insert Patrick Starr - meme] Why not both?

I would rather have a result from a widly "not so good" considered system, than no result at all.


edit: quoting troubles

[X] < Nail here for new monitor
Shugga Ditz
Chaos Army
#14 - 2013-04-15 11:01:39 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Shugga Ditz wrote:
~stuff~

Your post is quite illuminating because it makes clear how different scanning and exploration is for different people. I joined shortly after Apocrypha so I didn't know the old system at all.

People like you who live in k-space and do exploration for fun (and to hit the jackpot) are entirely different from w-space residents who need to scan often and fast to even move around systems. Your preferred system would instantly kill w-space. I can see however that it might be fun for new exploration PvE.

Maybe CCP plans to actually bring a variation of the old system back for special new sites, without killing the current system for wormholes and existing sites, decoupling both. That could make for cool new content and would mostly appease my concerns...


Yeah - of course WH's didn't exist back then - and the scanning system changed in part to support them. Ask most K-space explorers about what annoys them in scanning and a good percentage would say "finding WH sigs (and grav belts)"... Changing to the new system made WH exploration possible, but at the same time made content exploration too easy.

And of course, waiting... what was it? ten minutes? for a partial probe result wasn't fun itself :) But the idea that you could find something that was truly hidden tickled the right parts of my brain. I think a lot of the draw of Eve is about anticipation. When your ratting in 0.0 your hoping every warp to a new belt brings an officer, faction or hauler spawn. When your training for you spend weeks anticipating what you'll do with it. When your running sites you want to see what the overseer/station is going to drop... will it be tags and ammo again? Will it be a 3bn mod? When your sat on the titan for two hours while the FC screams at you to keep comms clear, your anticipating (punching him in the face?) the big fight that lasts 5 minutes at the end. So the exploration system USED to be another avenue for anticipation that got (very) occasionally (largely) rewarded. Now its just something you do, like putting ammo in your guns, or PI, or FW sites, or Incursions, or invention. They all (to some degree) have had the 'ante' reduced so anyone can play, but the jackpot is so small that its just a grind. Like playing the lottery with one ball and a max payout of a buck fifty.

The other thing with exploration was that the time to find the site, worked FOR you once you'd found it. There was no short-cut (scanning ships in exploration content was hard as long as you kept your drones in) and scanning out the site itself would take someone else as long as it took you. I'm no miner, but if I found a large rare-ore belt in lowsec/hostile space, I'd ship up and go mine it out over a couple of days on my own - or a few hours with the corp if people could stomach sitting in a barge. Because it was rare, worth money, and I had a chance of actually surviving long enough to profit. Now I can be scanned out in seconds - so its just not worth it. (admittedly I doubt I'd go mining now, even if it were the same - it was just a phase for me, as it is for most)

So for me, the changes to scanning removed exploration as engaging gameplay and turned it "the grind". I don't know what the answer is - I'm not a game designer (and like I say I realise I'm probably the minority) but I'd like to see exploration move back towards the old system in some way. To require a large investment in something and have the chance of large reward - and for your risk to be mitigated by the investment you made initially. Tough set of criteria I guess.

Maybe the investment could somehow be linked to research agents now that datacores production has moved to FW? Be nice to have a use for those agents again. Perhaps they could sell "one time use exploration/discovery probes" instead...? I dunno.
TeeKay Latef
Seraphim Ltd
#15 - 2013-04-15 11:32:01 UTC
I can't talk about ancient scanning methods - but i like the current system. It's a good combination of skills and equipment that brings you the best results. Sure it would be nice to have preset probe formations or a button that says "launch all the probes!" but i can live without that.

If you know what you're doing the magical 90pts strenght can be reached in less than four days training and some spacebucks. My experience showed me that this strenght will allow you to find all possible sites.

Changes i would like to see are mainly about diversity of sites. Change the NPCs from time to time, rework the trigger mechanic to something less repetetive. Maybe even a fail trigger, where ships warp of. Or bonus triggers, that lead to another site like a miniature escalation. For eg, a hidden radar/magneto site with 3-4 cans that can only be found through this.
TZeer
BURN EDEN
#16 - 2013-04-15 12:24:35 UTC
Are CCP seriously coming with a new scanning system?


I bloody hope they have fixed the "hit scan, get instant warp spot" that's basically made any form of long range PVP a joke.

If they get rid of the "5sec I have your spot" I will be quite happy!!!


If not the entire caldari T1 BS line will be a joke. Every single one have a bonus for ranged combat.
TorTorden
Tors shibari party
#17 - 2013-04-19 12:28:13 UTC
Eitak Utrigas wrote:
Would it totally break the system if you had scanner probes that were tailored to the signature (Grav, Ladar, Mag etc). They could provide a significant boost over generic ones (which will still be available) and assist the scanner in filtering out the crap sites that they are not interested in?


Might be said already, but that's what the signature filters do.
s1ni5t3r
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-04-19 12:41:00 UTC
+1

CCP can we please have details of the intended changes.

From my view the system isn't broken atm so doesn't require a huge overhaul.
As mentioned above the mechanic that allows you to scan down a ship and warp straight to it in a fleet fight is a bit broken. A greater error in warp range to ships could be the solution to this.

Also perhaps making sigs a bit rarer and/or harder to scan down but more rewarding could bring back the excitement to exploration. It is after all supposed to be exploration. Not shopping. Adventure and mystery should have a part to play.
Natalia Abre-Kai
#19 - 2013-04-19 12:52:14 UTC
I'm hoping that they are changing the math behind the scenes as far as scanning goes... Then people will whine about having to fit scanning modules to scan people downLol
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#20 - 2013-04-19 12:59:19 UTC
s1ni5t3r wrote:
+1

CCP can we please have details of the intended changes.

From my view the system isn't broken atm so doesn't require a huge overhaul.
As mentioned above the mechanic that allows you to scan down a ship and warp straight to it in a fleet fight is a bit broken. A greater error in warp range to ships could be the solution to this.

Also perhaps making sigs a bit rarer and/or harder to scan down but more rewarding could bring back the excitement to exploration. It is after all supposed to be exploration. Not shopping. Adventure and mystery should have a part to play.


there is already next to no sigs remaining 1hour or so after down time. they need to be more plentiful but spread out or maybe as a secret buff to miners.. populate most results with grav sites (ore) and you can some times find the good ones amongst the "trash" sigs.

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