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Do the T2 ships need any love, HAC's that is?

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Author
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#21 - 2013-04-11 18:26:43 UTC
Ishtar is one of the few HACs to retain its role after the introduction of attack BCs, and cruiser and battlecruiser tiericide. It'll totally lose its niche in pvp once the navy vexor gets buffed, but it'll still maintain a small niche in pve, where the large dronebay, resistances, and drone control range bonus are still quite good.

Deimos on the other hand is quite jealous of the thorax's new 4th mid and the brutix's new 6th low.

The Eagle is bad because its an Eagle. There weren't any flying around before tiericide happened either. Hell, there weren't even any flying around even during the heydey of sniper hacs, prior to the introduction of attack BCs. Medium rails get some blame, but most of it can be traced to it being the only HAC with a single damage bonus.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#22 - 2013-04-12 10:00:09 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Yep, tech2 ships definitely are on our to-do list. While Command Ships, Black Ops and Heavy Assault Cruisers are quite in dire need of attention, we'll most likely go over them all one class at a time to make sure they fit with what we've done so far with the tiericide.
Angelina Joliee
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#23 - 2013-04-12 10:41:30 UTC
Yeah, please fix the caldari hacs - they are so bad atm.
All other hacs do not need any urgent changes - they are ok.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-04-12 10:53:24 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yep, tech2 ships definitely are on our to-do list. While Command Ships, Black Ops and Heavy Assault Cruisers are quite in dire need of attention, we'll most likely go over them all one class at a time to make sure they fit with what we've done so far with the tiericide.


I would be fascinated to know what you think about HACS any role bonus like the AF in mind and any thoughts on specializing there bonuses towards maybe a more vaga/deimos like approach i.e. short range guns/HAMS especially the caldari HACS in particular?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#25 - 2013-04-12 10:53:47 UTC
Angelina Joliee wrote:
Yeah, please fix the caldari hacs - they are so bad atm.
All other hacs do not need any urgent changes - they are ok.


Erm... not really. The Caldari ones have just been the worst for longest.

The advantages HACs have over their competitors are T2 resists (compared to faction cruisers) and small sig (compared to BCs). I would expect the HAC rework to be focused around emphasising these stats.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kali Omega
Diamond Dogs.
Mercenaires Sans Frontieres.
#26 - 2013-04-12 12:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kali Omega
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yep, tech2 ships definitely are on our to-do list. While Command Ships, Black Ops and Heavy Assault Cruisers are quite in dire need of attention, we'll most likely go over them all one class at a time to make sure they fit with what we've done so far with the tiericide.



Please Please don't touch my Redeemer its fine the way it is.

Edit: If you put laucnher hard points on it like its t1 counter part...so help me :P
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#27 - 2013-04-12 13:17:53 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Angelina Joliee wrote:
Yeah, please fix the caldari hacs - they are so bad atm.
All other hacs do not need any urgent changes - they are ok.


Erm... not really. The Caldari ones have just been the worst for longest.

The advantages HACs have over their competitors are T2 resists (compared to faction cruisers) and small sig (compared to BCs). I would expect the HAC rework to be focused around emphasising these stats.


and damage, since they are assault ships
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-04-12 14:15:34 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Angelina Joliee wrote:
Yeah, please fix the caldari hacs - they are so bad atm.
All other hacs do not need any urgent changes - they are ok.


Erm... not really. The Caldari ones have just been the worst for longest.

The advantages HACs have over their competitors are T2 resists.


Perhaps it predates me, but why do the resists have no consistency. For example the massive EM resist on minnie shields.

Seems bizarre.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#29 - 2013-04-12 14:32:32 UTC
Klown Walk wrote:
Zealot is still really good.

The new IN Omen will dominate it almost every way, even range.

Oderint Dum Metuant

Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-04-12 15:13:10 UTC
Ishtar could use a bonus adjustment. Like dropping the drone bay bonus, increase the base bay size, and add another turret bonus.
At that point its a matter of fixing medium rails which would help with a lot of what's wrong with the Gallente cruiser and bc lineup.Vexor and Navy Vexor stay being pure drone boats while Ishtar and Myrm have the turrets to go with their drones.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#31 - 2013-04-12 15:22:02 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Have you ever seen an eagle?


how to fix the eagle.

step one. boost medium rails damage by 5%

step two. increase base pg of the eagle

step three: add a mid slot

step 4: replace the second optimal range bonus for a rate of fire bonus.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-04-12 15:27:11 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Have you ever seen an eagle?


how to fix the eagle.

step one. boost medium rails damage by 5%

step two. increase base pg of the eagle

step three: add a mid slot

step 4: replace the second optimal range bonus for a rate of fire bonus.


Lol I just posted a new thread about the Eagle asking just that.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#33 - 2013-04-12 16:09:11 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Angelina Joliee wrote:
Yeah, please fix the caldari hacs - they are so bad atm.
All other hacs do not need any urgent changes - they are ok.


Erm... not really. The Caldari ones have just been the worst for longest.

The advantages HACs have over their competitors are T2 resists (compared to faction cruisers) and small sig (compared to BCs). I would expect the HAC rework to be focused around emphasising these stats.

If they follow assault frigs, then tankier + more dps, but a bit slower than their T1 counterparts.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#34 - 2013-04-12 16:37:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Inkuras
X Gallentius wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Angelina Joliee wrote:
Yeah, please fix the caldari hacs - they are so bad atm.
All other hacs do not need any urgent changes - they are ok.


Erm... not really. The Caldari ones have just been the worst for longest.

The advantages HACs have over their competitors are T2 resists (compared to faction cruisers) and small sig (compared to BCs). I would expect the HAC rework to be focused around emphasising these stats.

If they follow assault frigs, then tankier + more dps, but a bit slower than their T1 counterparts.

This^ . Make them bigger brothers of the AF's. like almost exactly the same, but on a cruiser level.

So make the Cerberus a kick ass HAM brawler, or capable HML sniper (lol), just like the Hawk can do with Rockets or Light missiles. The Eagle, well it already has identical bonuses to the Harpy, so I guess buffing rails and maybe changing the slots around is the fix needed.

The Sacrilage is already a large Vengeqnce, but make the bonuses consistent, so Missile Damage and ROF for Amarr cruiser bonus, and cap recharge and resists for HAC bonus. Give the Zealot the Sarum skin and swap the 5% ROF cruiser bonus for a 7.5% Tracking bonus, just like a Retribution.

I won't speak on Minmatar because I feel that their AF's and the Muninn are broken. The Vagabond is fine. Perhaps change the Jaguar to get the same bonuses as the Vaga?

The Deimos I feel should receive the same bonuses as the Enyo, so a 10% damage bonus for the cruiser skill, and the 7.5% tracking bonus, and leave the falloff bonus, just give it to the Ento too instead of its optimal one. The Ishtar, well I'm not sure if it should get the Ishkur's bonuses, or the other way around.

This is just my thought on the subject. By making the HACslarger versions of the AFs then you streamline training and create a clearer progression.

Edit: CCP, please give us Assault Destroyers.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

Ginger Barbarella
#35 - 2013-04-12 17:06:17 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
I have sick range on my Cerb heavies... don't you DARE say anything that'll get that nerfed again!!


That was never the issue with the Cerberus - the tank is. Even you have to admit that as soon as someone sneezes at a Cerberus it goes boom.


True, you almost have to OVER-tank it just to make it "normal"... But dat range... P

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

korrey
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-04-12 17:52:58 UTC  |  Edited by: korrey

Snip-

The Sacrilage is already a large Vengeqnce, but make the bonuses consistent, so Missile Damage and ROF for Amarr cruiser bonus, and cap recharge and resists for HAC bonus. Give the Zealot the Sarum skin and swap the 5% ROF cruiser bonus for a 7.5% Tracking bonus, just like a Retribution.



Bolded the part that should never happen.

Or else watch the Zealot's DPS drop to anemic.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#37 - 2013-04-13 03:39:42 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Angelina Joliee wrote:
Yeah, please fix the caldari hacs - they are so bad atm.
All other hacs do not need any urgent changes - they are ok.


Erm... not really. The Caldari ones have just been the worst for longest.

The advantages HACs have over their competitors are T2 resists.


Perhaps it predates me, but why do the resists have no consistency. For example the massive EM resist on minnie shields.

Seems bizarre.


T2 resists are derived from lore, Minmatar get EM to combat Amarr lasers, Caldari get Thermal to combat Gallente Blasters, Amarr get explosive to combat Minmatar projectile ammo, and so on.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#38 - 2013-04-13 05:22:27 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Angelina Joliee wrote:
Yeah, please fix the caldari hacs - they are so bad atm.
All other hacs do not need any urgent changes - they are ok.


Erm... not really. The Caldari ones have just been the worst for longest.

The advantages HACs have over their competitors are T2 resists.


Perhaps it predates me, but why do the resists have no consistency. For example the massive EM resist on minnie shields.

Seems bizarre.


T2 resists are derived from lore, Minmatar get EM to combat Amarr lasers, Caldari get Thermal to combat Gallente Blasters, Amarr get explosive to combat Minmatar projectile ammo, and so on.

This, and for practical purposes, they provide a general counter to NPC damage types, as well as adding some variety into standard ship fittings.

thhief ghabmoef

Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2013-04-13 13:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sparkus Volundar
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Angelina Joliee wrote:
Yeah, please fix the caldari hacs - they are so bad atm.
All other hacs do not need any urgent changes - they are ok.


Erm... not really. The Caldari ones have just been the worst for longest.

The advantages HACs have over their competitors are T2 resists.


Perhaps it predates me, but why do the resists have no consistency. For example the massive EM resist on minnie shields.

Seems bizarre.


They actually have very good consistency but the way resist bonuses are applied can make it look a bit mixed visually.

Basically, the armour and shields of T2 and T3 ships each race gets a good resist bonus to the main damage type of their racial enemy and a moderate resist bonus to the secondary damage type of their racial enemies.

So for example, Minmatar get a good EM bonus to armour and shields and a moderate thermal bonus to armour and shield to counter Amarr energy weapons. Amarr then get the opposite for explosive and kinetic respectively, matching Minmatar T2 ammo and much of their T1 ammo. Since the base shield resist is 0%, the Minmatar shield EM bonus looks huge. Similarly for Amarr and armour where their base explosive resist is 20% leading to a huge armour explosive resist.

In the middle, Caldari and Gallente get good bonuses to thermal (e.g. Ogre drones) and kinetic (e.g. missile damage bonuses) respectively. And since they both use blasters, their moderate bonuses are to the opposite of their good bonus.

Well, that's the rationale I came up with in the past...maybe someone can link an old Dev post or something with an official line :)

.

Solomar Espersei
Quality Assurance
#40 - 2013-04-14 00:10:05 UTC
I know the HACs look bad (and really, the Caldari ones ARE bad), but those resists are easy to underestimate, particularly in gangs which have Logi and Links.

Quality Assurance Recruiting intrepid explorers and BlOps/Cov Ops combat enthusiasts